Author Topic: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy  (Read 1218 times)

Offline osprey

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 07 April 21 23:18 BST (UK) »
1891 census for Smith family in case it helps  :-\

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 08 April 21 07:40 BST (UK) »
Good Morning,

Thank you so much for all your help so far, she is certainly a tough nut to crack!

Yes, I have a full list of Children, will post that as soon as I get in to work

Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 08 April 21 09:58 BST (UK) »
So this is the information I have on the Smith family so far

They lived on a Gypsy Caravan and Tent site quite famous in Birmingham called Black Patch, in Handsworth Birmingham. The 1901 Census reference black patch as a location, but I think other entries in other year include the boundary road of Foundry Lane/Road, and a road leading off foundry called Anne Rd.

The site was ran by Sentenia and Esau Smith (Gypsy Queen and King). They had approx 11 children, one being John Smith (1839), who Married Caroline Lovell (1843).

What I have from a family tree book of the smiths is that John and Caroline had 11 Children also,
John Smith (1861)
Nathaniel (1865)
Centenia (1868)
Camelia/Amelia (1869)
Matilda (1872)
Georgina (1874)
Arnold (1876)
Joseph (1877)
Amy (1880)
Angelia (1883)
Wrighton (1887)

Now, listed in that book is that John (1861) married a lady called Eliza Hall (1865). Apparently, they had 15 Children in total, but only 5 daughters survived.
One of those Daughters was called Adeliade, and immediately I thought that must be the one given the Mother maiden name was Hall and Adelaide would have been John and Carolines Grand Daughter. But if you look on the 1901 Census for John and Eliza, Adeliade is listed as 6 yrs old meaning a Y.o.B of 1895.
So she must be a different Adelaide.


NOTE: There are quite a few of my messages awaiting moderator approval on page 1 that you might want to catch up on as well when they get approved


Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 08 April 21 10:29 BST (UK) »
I also spoke again with my uncle and confirmed that Adelaide Harrison died in the 70s, so the one listed in the index in 1977 seems correct.

Also, he is absolutely certain she was connected with Gypsy's, so the Adelaide list on John and Caroline's 1901 census seem like the best potential I think

Offline MonicaL

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 08 April 21 20:29 BST (UK) »
Having another look...not that I am finding anything new really  :-\

On a different approach. What was William Hall's occupation on Adelaide's marriage cert? Did it show him as deceased? What were the names of the witnesses to the marriage?

The name Billy Broadhead that you have been given, any indication what role he had in Adelaide's life or her family?

Monica
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Offline osprey

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 08 April 21 21:59 BST (UK) »
this could be the family on the 1871 census, some of the relationships are a bit odd.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RR-7WL

Death reg Rito Smith 17 dec qtr 1905 Kings Norton vol 6c pg 251

Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline MonicaL

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 08 April 21 22:06 BST (UK) »
I saw that entry in 1871 and it certainly is all mixed up (no difference really from the original image)!

The census that is completely AWOL is 1881. Tried a bunch of combinations and cannot see anything resembling the family members.

Monica
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Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #16 on: Friday 09 April 21 11:39 BST (UK) »
Having another look...not that I am finding anything new really  :-\

On a different approach. What was William Hall's occupation on Adelaide's marriage cert? Did it show him as deceased? What were the names of the witnesses to the marriage?

The name Billy Broadhead that you have been given, any indication what role he had in Adelaide's life or her family?

Monica

Im not very good at transcribing, but below is the line off the marriage cert, and the second image is the whitnesses.

My uncle doesnt know what the relation was wiht Billy Broadhead, other than knowing he was a Horse Dealer, but then alot of the men on the Black Patch were horse dealers!
Im really not sure if the Billy Broadhead part is just and old comment that has stuck





Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #17 on: Friday 09 April 21 13:51 BST (UK) »
this could be the family on the 1871 census,

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5RR-7WL

Death reg Rito Smith 17 dec qtr 1905 Kings Norton vol 6c pg 251


This kind of seems right, the relationships might match up. Is there an image of the census to see if it has been transcribed right.

John Smith was baptised on 1st September 1839 and the son of Sentenia and Esau Smith. The 1871 census was taken in April 1871, so he was likely 31 year of age.

He Married Caroline Lovell, who was baptised on 12th Feb 1843. So she was likely 28.
Could her name have been transcribed or writting incorrectly as Leana?

It is believed they had 11 Children, of which on that list

John, Born approximately 1861, Died 20/6/1940 (Married Eliza Hall, born 28/07/1865, died 19/1/1939, and parents were Isaiah and Sarah)

Nathaniel, Baptised 28/6/1865 (married Emma Caroline Owen)

Cantenia, Baptised 2/9/1868 - But not listed on that census, so maybe she died?

Camelia (possibly Amelia), Baptised 31/1/1869, Died 1951 (had 3 marriaged, William Lines, Reuben Potter, and Hary Worral.........I believe Eliza Hall from John and Carolines 1901 census could be Reuben and Camelias daughter as they had 3 children.......Reuben (1894), Nehemiah (1896) and Eliza (1897) She is obviously completely different to the Carmelia on the census as name is slightly different and age is completely out. So Carmelia must be one of Johns or Carolines siblings children.


John Smith (Senior), had a brother called Mezia. So it would seem he was staying with John at the time of the Census and the "Father" relation is incorrect. I think Mezia married Carolina Loveridge, but there is very little information on him and them