Author Topic: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy  (Read 7430 times)

Offline bbart

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #99 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 04:44 BST (UK) »

Centenia/Rosanna 3 daughter...have any registrations been found for Centenia?

Monica of the Black Patch Team

From the booklet that Rustyh has, Centenia was baptised in 1868 at Bordesley War.

The transcription at FindMyPast has this:
Cendenia Amy
Last name   Smith
Gender   Female
Birth year   -
Birth place   -
Baptism year   1868
Baptism date   02 Sep 1868
Place   Bordesley
County   Warwickshire
Country   England
Father's first name(s)   John
Father's last name   Smith
Mother's first name(s)   Cendenia

And this birth registration:
First name(s)   Cendenia Amy
Last name   Smith
Birth quarter   3
Birth year   1868
Mother's maiden name   Causon
District   Aston
County   Warwickshire
Country   England
Volume   6D
Page   228

The mmn is probably a mistranscribed "Carson"?
See edit below:

And then sadly, this:
First name(s)   Amy Cindenia
Last name   Smith
Gender   Female
Birth day   -
Birth month   -
Birth year   1869 (This should be 1868 assuming it is a match).
Age   0
Death quarter   2
Death year   1869
District   Aston
County   Warwickshire
Volume   6D
Page   142

Edit:
From Freebmd:
Marriages Jun 1853   (>99%)
Canson    Sendria        Gloucester    6a   429     Scan available - click to view
Causon    Sendria         Gloster    6a   429     Scan available - click to view
Hamblet    John         Gloucester    6a   429     Scan available - click to view
Smith    John         Gloster    6a   429     Scan available - click to view
Smith    Mary Ann         Gloster    6a   429

John and "Cinderien" Smith in the 1871:
Registration district:    Aston
Sub-registration district:    Deritend
ED, institution, or vessel:    12
Household schedule number:    53
Piece:    3135
Folio:    117
Page number:    10

So after all that, the wrong baptism has been attached in the booklet, so Centenia/Centenia could still be that Rosanna.    :-\


Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #100 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 14:29 BST (UK) »
I think your right on the Wrighton and Reto names being the same person.

I can not find anything on Centenia Smith, so maybe she is Rosanna as you say.

On the 1891 Census, John Jnr, Nathaniel, Centenia / Rosanna, Amelia and Matilda are not present with John and Caroline. But they would all be of an age to have moved on.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802239?h=276a1f&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

Living in Foundary Road (Black Patch)
John and Caroline Smith
Georgina
Arnold
Amy
Angelina
Reto
(No Joseph listed either)


In 1901 Census, all but Amy and Reto have moved on, with Grand Daughters Eliza Potter and Adelaide Hall staying there
1901 Census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:WQ8N-Q6Z

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

Living in Black Patch
John and Caroline Smith
Amy
Reto
(No Joseph listed either)


Nathaniel Smith
Baptism - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802079?h=1ddd2b&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802113?h=93dc25&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

1901 Census - Living At Black Patch - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

1911 Census - Maybe? -https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWWW-PGD


Amelia Smith
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802143?h=799c0f&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

Matilda Smith
Marriage - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802160?h=810f9e&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

Arnold Smith
1901 Census
Living at Blackpatch - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802160?h=810f9e&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url

Amy Smith
Baptism - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JMHV-9NR

1901 Census - Living At Black Patch - https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23802248?h=3916e4&utm_campaign=bandido-webparts&utm_source=post-share-modal&utm_medium=copy-url



Do you all still have access to that onedrive folder I sent by PM. I have taken the 1891 and 1901 census and listed all the names at foundary road and black patch which makes it easier to see and search names that were there. Including the Loveridge and Calytons. If you look in the folder, its the excel files, your weclome to access


Offline osprey

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #101 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 15:39 BST (UK) »
Baptism 6 Feb 1887 Handsworth for Wrighton so of John, labourer, & Caroline Smith of Booth Street. Indexed as Wright on Ancestry. He may have been named for the place that John was born, his baptism that I gave earlier is in Ryton upon Dunsmore.

Not sure I've given you these baptism for siblings of John
Lea Marston 10 Feb 1842 Rosanna daughter of Ajoo, basket maker, & Santy Smith of Soubro? Northamptonshire (wonder if that's meant to be Sulgrave which has come up on other records for the family)
Hampton in Arden 22 May 1848 Cintimenta daughter of Heyshaw, tinker, and Centa Smith
Sutton Coldfield 3 June 1855 Cornelia daughter of Esau, basket maker, & Santa Smith of Coldfield.
Whitnash 6 Jan 1861 Thomas (born 18 Dec 1860) son of Asher, basket maker, & Senty Smith, gipsies.

Don't worry about Joseph & Matilda, they are a different family.

I also suspect that Cantenia is from another family. If you look at the dates of baptism - 2 Sept 1868 & 31 Jan 1869, there's rather less than 9 months between them. Also, bbart has found a birth reg for her with mother's maiden name of Causon, not Lovell.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline MonicaL

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #102 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 15:45 BST (UK) »
Thank you, Russ. Will have a look  :)

It is great to see your tree coming together with sources and documents  ;) The only bit that I would take out  ;D...is Matilda being connected to your line. She was Joseph's sister, and I think it has been established that Joseph belongs to a different family group.

Osprey did a brilliant job finding and putting together a summary that was posted yesterday for the family of Joseph and Matilda with their parents. Different to your family group.

From the little we have seen, it is a very complicated family to follow. It is easy enough for some mistakes to have crept in over the years. Without being meticulous about finding sources, documents and confirming events the way you are doing, you can go off line quite easily sometimes. :-\

Not being able to find that 1881 census for them is sorely felt. Think they managed to miss it altogether!

Monica

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Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #103 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 16:38 BST (UK) »
Thank you, its certainly a hard family to piece together.

Still do not seem any closer to finding how Adelaide Hall fits in  ::) :-[

Offline osprey

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #104 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 16:49 BST (UK) »
wherever the family was in 1881, I suspect the enumerator couldn't find them.

 ::)
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #105 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 19:22 BST (UK) »
I came across this Centenia, but it's quite a different birth year.
It looks like she died at or close to Birth

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/sharing/23804942?h=0b6bac



Offline MonicaL

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #106 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 19:25 BST (UK) »
She could well be the child of extended family members.

Monica
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Offline rustyh

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Re: The Adelaide Brickwall - possibly Black Patch Gypsy
« Reply #107 on: Tuesday 13 April 21 19:27 BST (UK) »
I don't have a My Heritage account but came across this in case you guys do

https://www.myheritage.com/names/sentenia_smith