Author Topic: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919  (Read 973 times)

Offline StephenA6

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Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« on: Saturday 10 April 21 11:30 BST (UK) »
Hi all. Hoping someone can help me with resolving this.

I am researching my 2 x Great Grandfather, James White. From various records I have I know that

  • he was born in Irvine in c1853
  • his mother was Janet Taylor
  • he married Helen (Ellen) Ritchie in Dalry on 25/6/1875
  • he was a miner who moved from Dalry to Bellshill in the 1890s
  • he died in Bellshill in 1919

All of the above can be corroborated from the marriage and death certificates and census records.

So far so good ... the problem however is in identifying his father
  • his marriage certificate from 1875  lists his father as ROBERT White (deceased), a GAS WORKER.
  • his death certificate from 1919 lists his father as JAMES White (deceased) , a FARMER

To further complicate, I can find
  • a plausible 1861 census record showing James (born c1853 Irvine) with father ROBERT and mother Janet White
  • a plausible 1871 census record showing James (born c1853 Irvine) with mother Janet White but no father ... which ties to the marriage certificate where ROBERT was deceased
  • a marriage certificate from 1849 for ROBERT White and Janet Taylor ... but none for James White and Janet Taylor
  • a birth  certificate for James White b1852 in Irvine to father JAMES White and mother Janet Tayor

Really confused by the conflicting records ... if it was just the death record that was out of sync I would probably conclude that the person registering the death had made a mistake. But there are multiple records pointing to either James as father or Robert as father.

Anyone able to help ?

Incidentally when I trace back to ROBERT White, I can see he has an older brother called JAMES, albeit he was married and has children with someone else. The brother though was a miner not a farmer.




Diamond, Drumnavaddy and Banbridge (- 1890)

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 10 April 21 11:37 BST (UK) »
The OPR on Scotlands People have a baptism 1852 Irvine with parents James White and Janet Taylor.
I cannot see any birth record with father Robert.
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline StephenA6

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 10 April 21 11:38 BST (UK) »
Hi Neale. Yes thats one of the data points I listed. The birth record you found corroborates my 2xgg's  death certificate but conflicts with the marriage certificate and census records.  Thanks

Diamond, Drumnavaddy and Banbridge (- 1890)

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 10 April 21 11:42 BST (UK) »
What does the death cert. for Janet Taylor say about her husband?
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)


Offline StephenA6

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 10 April 21 12:07 BST (UK) »
For the Janet Taylor who was married to ROBERT White

  • she remarried Adam Barr in 1873 in Dalry
  • moved to Bellshill in the 1890s .... the same time as James and his family also moved
  • died in Bellshill in 1908 and lists ROBERT White, a general labourer, as her first husband on the death certificate

Which makes it all the more confusing that my 2xgg lists JAMES White a farmer on his death certificate and there is a birth certificate from 1852 which matches on dates, mother's name and birth location but again relates to JAMES rather than ROBERT White

Confusing ...   

Diamond, Drumnavaddy and Banbridge (- 1890)

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 10 April 21 20:38 BST (UK) »
Hi Stephen

It can be confusing when you get conflicting information. However, in this case, you  have a wealth of material which all points to Robert being James' father.

This is the family in 1861:

Robert White 38 gas maker
Janet White 28
John White 10    
James White 8
Robert White 6
Alexander White 4
Hugh White 2 months

Address: Cotton Row , Irvine

So, you have the parish marriage entry for 1849. Every birth registration (statutory or parish record) for the children above, except for James, shows father as Robert. I think James has been written up in error by the parish clerk.

When he married, he gave his father's name as Robert. This is info that he gave, not a third party.

When he died, an informant to his death gave his father's name as James which looks to be an error. Likely he/she did not know or remember well his father's name. Who reported his death?

What were the names of his children with Ellen, especially the early born ones?

The info regarding his mother also tallies with her first husband being Robert.

Mistakes did happen and it is a pain when they do. However, you have so much supporting material which states father was Robert. Who reported Robert's death? Was this in 1867? Is this his death:

Robert White
Death Age: 42
Event Type: Death
Death Date: 25 Dec 1867
Death Place: Dalry, Ayr, Scotland
Occupation: Brusher
Colliery: Blair No.2
Owner: Eglington Iron Co
Notes: Fall of coal off the side of a pillar
(from the  UK, Coal Mining Accidents and Deaths Index, 1878-1935)

Monica
   
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 10 April 21 20:49 BST (UK) »
I think I can see him now on the censuses after his marriage:

1881 - Children show as:

Mary 4
Janet 2
Ellen 11 months

1891 - Children show as:

Helen 10
Robert 8
John 6
Annie 3
Margaret 1

Robert and Janet feature here, likely called in honour of his parents I would suggest. Helen Ritchie's parents John and Margaret? See links online for 'Scottish naming pattern'.

Monica 
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Neale1961

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 10 April 21 22:51 BST (UK) »
Apologies Stephen, I had to stop last night to go out, and I wanted to have a proper look at the census, which I have done now.
However in the mean time, Monica has given you an excellent answer.
My only other suggestion would be to look at the birth/ baptism record for James White - Does it say anything like "lawful son" or "natural son"?
Milligan - Jardine – Glencross – Dinwoodie - Brown: (Dumfriesshire & Kirkcudbrightshire)
Clark – Faulds – Cuthbertson – Bryson – Wilson: (Ayrshire & Renfrewshire)
Neale – Cater – Kinder - Harrison: (Warwickshire & Queensland)
Roberts - Spry: (Cornwall, Middlesex & Queensland)
Munster: (Schleswig-Holstein & Queensland) and Plate: (Braunschweig, Neubruck & Queensland)

Offline StephenA6

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Re: Father of James White b c1852 d 1919
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 11 April 21 10:47 BST (UK) »
Thanks Monica and Neale.

Yes I agree the balance of evidence points towards Robert being the father however I am still somewhat spooked that the birth and death certificates both list a different person.

My 2xgg’s death was registered by his son (also called Robert).

The only explanation I can think of is that the original birth certificate was entered incorrectly and at the time of death they somehow looked it up to establish his parentage. However given he was born in Ayrshire and died in Lanarkshire this feels unlikely for the time period. Equally because Robert died in a mining accident (which is surely a significant event) and James was survived by his wife, I’m not sure how plausible it is for the occupation as well as the name to be wrong.

On the surrogate father ... James was a second child with the first and third children born a year either side of James birth. Both the first and third have listed Robert as the father. Even if his wife had an affair, I’m not sure how they would be able to conclude that Robert wasn’t the father.

The birth certificate is remarkably brief (even for the time) and has no mention of lawful or natural.

I suspect I will have to go with Robert on the family tree although doesn’t feel entirely comfortable at the moment

Thanks





Diamond, Drumnavaddy and Banbridge (- 1890)