A bit of a puzzler

[Seesure]

Hi folks, I'm looking for the collective knowledge on the board to give me an indication if I'm looking in the right area.

Both myself and my mother have had a match (as you'd expect) on MyHeritage with a lady, let's say called May.

My match is 226.9 Cms with 9 segment matches the largest being 56.6Cm
My mum's match is 428.Cms with 9 segments and the largest being 67Cm

May has also confirmed that she has a match with another lady, who we'll call Sunday, as a 1st/2nd cousin once removed.

With Sunday my match is 393.3Cms and my mother's is 524.9Cms.

Age wise Sunday is similar to my mother in their 70s and their common ancestor is a grandfather but different grandmothers.

However May is in her 60s so sits between me and my mother age wise.

With Sunday in the mix it points towards my mother's previously unknown grandfather as being the Lothario, but as I'm struggling with lack of tangible evidence from records a lot of it is guess work.

Geography all ties in very closely - Bilston, Wednesfield, Tettenhall and Dudley areas of Wolverhampton.

I'm leaning towards the common ancestor potentially being my mothers grand father who could be on paper be May's ggrandfather.

My mum's father was born in 1905 in Bilston.

May's grandparents were born:

PGF 1901 in Dudley
PGM 1902 in Dudley
MGF 1907 in Wolverhampton
MGM 1912 in Bilston

I'm leaning towards the mother of the MGM has having an involvement with my mother's newly identified GF as that lady was born in Bilston in 1889 so it starts to tie down the geography even closer. Her official husband was also born there in 1884 and died there in 1960.

I've just checked the 1911 census and they were still living in Bilston then as well as in the 1939 register.

So you can see there are a load of assumptions but does the collective wisdom think I'm on the right track?

Cheers

[Flemming]

What are the shared cMs between May and Sunday?

[Seesure]

What are the shared cMs between May and Sunday?

That I don't know, although both have responded to my messages they seem rather reluctant to share too much information. I'll try and find out.

I've also found another person who I'm matched with on Ancestry (398 Cms) who I know for a fact is a full 1st cousin of Sunday - but he's not on MyHeritage, I've asked him to upload to there to see if he's also matched to May but he's also reluctant to share information. (And my mum isn't on Ancestry).

He did mention last year that there were two half siblings of my grandfather who were still alive but wouldn't help identify them. I managed to track one down who I know sadly died in February so I'm trying to locate the last one alive to see if she can share any information.

The enclosed picture is how I think the relationships work if my assumptions are right...

[Flemming]

Have you tried inputting the cMs to DNA Painter's Shared CM Tool?

https://dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4

Your shared cMs with May suggest a full 2C. And your Mum's shared cMs with May suggest a full 1C1R. Both would suggest May descends from the same grandmother and grandfather as your Mum.

Your Mum's shared cMs with Sunday suggest a half 1C, but your shared match suggests the same. Do you know if you have any connection with Sunday and her cousin on your paternal line?

[Seesure]

Yes I've looked at the DNA painter tool and it doesnt really help much more.

I really don't think that there is any chance of my paternal line being connected with Sunday whatsoever, some of my paternal line came out of Ireland in the 1850s and when to war wherever they could find a good fight including Crimea and the defence of Ladysmith and then ended up in India meeting up with the other part of my paternal line who had been feathering their pockets out there for donkeys years in the British East India Company.

My maternal line on the other hand seems to have been based in the West Midlands for as long as I can find out, some did wander off to Utah in the 1850s and a few disappeared to Australia and NZ in the 1950s. 

Bilston seems to be the meeting point of these people from around 1905 to around 1911. What I'm struggling with is the number of half siblings that my grandfather had, so far I've identified an additional 12 that he knew nothing about as well as the 4 he grew up with.

May is a new one in to the mix, but her mother died early as did her grandmother so she knows little about her family. On paper all the dates on her ancestors marriages would imply no connection but as we know being married doesn't mean people don't seek comfort elsewhere....I suspect a little cuckolding may have occurred.

I've sent both of them  messages again today, I just hope one of them replies.

[Seesure]

What are the shared cMs between May and Sunday?

Sunday has just replied and their connection is 224.6cM. largest segment being 50.7cM

I'm 226.9cM with the largest segment being 56.6cM to May.

I've also managed to find a birth record of one of May's grandfathers showing he was born 2 year before his parents were married and was registered with his mothers maiden name.

[JohnDoe2020]

I think Fleming is right on the relationship based on cm and generation. I am curious about Sunday's other 1st cousin mentioned at 398 cm match to you. Follow their trees, there is a shared match in there waiting for you. Have you run the auto clustering tool on my heritage?

[Seesure]

I think Fleming is right on the relationship based on cm and generation. I am curious about Sunday's other 1st cousin mentioned at 398 cm match to you. Follow their trees, there is a shared match in there waiting for you. Have you run the auto clustering tool on my heritage?

This first cousin of Sunday, let's call him Dave, is 81 years old and like Sunday (in her 70s) shares a grandfather with my mother (also in her 70s).  My mother has a different grandmother to Sunday and Dave though.

It looks like to me that this man is the great grandfather to May (with a 3rd woman) based on circumstance of geography and date of her known great grandparent's marriage date which was 2 years after her grandfather was born. 

What I can't work out is the low DNA % between Sunday and May, I'd have expected at least another 150cMs based on my mine and my mothers cMs between the two of them. I'm messaged Dave and asked that he tries to upload to MyHeritage as then we can see his DNA match in regards to the cMs.

I'm not a paying member these days on MyHeritage so not able to run the clustering tool, but I think I'm on the right track but would like to understand if it is just the DNA flow through the generations that is causing what seems an oddity to me.

I'm hoping that some of Sunday's 1st full cousins also do a DNA at some point as well as that might help with things.

[Carmella]

Have you tried experimenting with the  "What Are The Odds" DNA tool (WATO) on the dnapainter website?

Could help eliminate some relationships...