Author Topic: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.  (Read 5554 times)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #36 on: Tuesday 18 May 21 11:38 BST (UK) »
You're welcome.

Should have found it earlier but they are indexed on a commercial site (not Anc*) as McKadyen so naturally searches for M*c*f*d*n failed to find them!

 
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Essnell

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #37 on: Wednesday 19 May 21 01:55 BST (UK) »
HI rorfarian,

Thank you and not a problem. It is really difficult with all the variations to names .  however I now know the correct info and why the other is not so.  Thanks again, much appreciated help. 
 Kind regards ,
Essnell.

Offline Essnell

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #38 on: Sunday 22 August 21 06:47 BST (UK) »
Hello Everyone - who helped on this thread.   I am sorry this is so long.....

I am hoping that some of you may be able to help again.  This is the same family so I have decided to add  here rather than start a new thread.
It concerns James Dewar Brown   Dob C 1772 and  his wife Isabel Harper Dob C 1772.  Originally the question was about their descendants  and Christina Brown. 
Having followed this to it's conclusion there were other connections made.

Now since then I have been looking further into the children of this particular couple  who had about 7 children, if I have found them all.  My particular one of interest is their first child Elizabeth [Elisabethe] who married George Bainbridge, because their son Robert Bower Bainbridge connected to others in my research as before.

George and Elizabeth had 7 children including Robert Bower Bainbridge.  I have been gathering DOBs and DODs for them to tie off the family. However one I am having problem with.  It is there second last child Janet Bainbridge.

Janet Bainbridge was born according to the SP record and Cert copy I purchased on line  25th October 1842 and Baptised 13thNovember 1842 . I have a copy of the parish record containing those dates her parents names and that the child was named Janet.


But when it came to a death record that was a different kettle of fish. I first had to find a marriage so I had a married surname name to search for. That proved difficult.   I couldn't use census eitheras i didn't have the married surname.

  To find a father for these children I decided to look for birth records and as mostly all were well after 1855, I used the select births etc  I found 6 of their birth details by this and purchased the online copies of the registry entries. Not their eldest child Thomas Jnr.

Now this  was interersting:   Their father was stated as Thomas Hetherington and Mother as Janet Hynd Hetherington  and that they were married 12th October 1864 New-york
  and that Janet's M S was Bainbridge.     The New-york was another twist.  I have the death certs for both parents.   Those match up for Janet but Thomas has 'parents not known'.

I have looked for New-york and the only place seems to be Newyork USA.  So I went to the 1861
  and 1871 census records and checked on the children's birth places particularly Thomas as I did not find his on SP.   yes born in USA - America.
I finally found that Thomas Hetherington DOB C 1844 went to the USA in 1863 on board the 'Underwriter'. He was 19 and single.    I have not found a USA marriage for him  or birth for the child Thomas that would be chronoligically acceptable. 


This is as far as I have  got
but  there is another Janet  ... Janet Hynd born 6th June 1843  her parents were William Hynd and Agnes Beveridge.  Everything I look at for her leads straight to these same records above. 

The Janet Bainbridge didn't die till 1882 and she died as Janet Hetherington with parents George Bainbridge and Elizabeth Brown.   

I need to separate these two ladies.

Regards Essnell



Offline ruthhelen

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #39 on: Thursday 26 August 21 09:39 BST (UK) »
Not sure exactly what youíre trying to confirm here, but the Janet Hynd, born 1 Jun 1843 to William Hynd and Agnes Beveridge (baptised 11 June 1843 in Aberdour, Fife) is, I think, actually Jane Hynd. The baptism record clearly names her as Janet, but there was also another child baptised on the same day, also named Janet, so itís possible the registrar made an error.

Either way, Jane Hynd consistently appears as Jane in all subsequent records. She married James Halkett in 1865 in Dalgety, Fife. They had 9 children: Agnes Beveridge Halkett, George Halkett, Margaret White Halkett, Jane Hynd Halkett, William Hynd Halkett, Janet Halkett, James Halkett, David Halkett and Elizabeth Hynd Halkett. Jane Halkett (nee Hynd) died in 1926 in Tullialan, Fife.

Thomas Hetherington (b. abt. 1844) is altogether more interesting. He is noted as an orphan in 1851 in Rutherglen, where he appears with the family of George Craig, coal miner and his wife Jean/Jane Adams  (they married in 1846) - heís with the same family in 1861, where he is noted as a boarder. Itís possible heís related to one of these families in some way, although I havenít found any evidence to support that yet.

Ruth
McArthur, Milne, Mitchell, Black, Robertson, Morrison, Slessor, Lawrence - Aberdeenshire/Banffshire. Muir, Waddell, Fraser, Orr, Cowden - Lanarkshire/Renfrewshire/Dunbartonshire. Dalziel, Dalzell, Gourley, Cromie, Crombie, Bell - Co Down. Haymon, Baker, Corke, Cooley, Ginger - Kent/London.


Offline Essnell

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #40 on: Thursday 26 August 21 14:53 BST (UK) »
Hi Ruthhelen,
 
Thank you for your reply.  Just to clear it up about what I was looking for.

Janet is the daughter of Elizabeth Brown and George Bainbridge in the earlier part of the thread
Posts #21  and #25

I decided to sort through the children for their Dates of birth and deaths and possibly other info as Robert Bower had been the initial person of interest.   This was just to get a family history together.

All was fine till I reached Janet  born 25th October 1842.
.. I was so thrown by the fact that all the children of Janet Bainbridge married to Thomas Hetherington, had her name on their birth records as Janet Hynd Hetherington, M.S. [Maiden Surname]   Bainbridge.  I was not sure if I had the correct family.    Then it made me wonder about this name Hynd.   Hence the other Janet born in 1843 who is a totally different person.

Also those records show that Thomas' s parents are unknown so that fits with the orphan information.

Thank you for the information on where Thomas Hetherington was in the various years, however I am still having issues.  On these birth records, all of them,  it clearly states that Janet and Thomas were married in the USA New-york 1864.  I also found a Thomas Hetherington immigrated to the USA in 1863 . He was 19. The age fits perfectly.

Also on the 1871 and 1881  their son Thomas was born in the USA   5ys old in 1871 , then 15 on the following one.

And the 1871 says that the  Head Thomas was born in Glasgow, Lanarkshire     and the 1817 when he is a border, the birth place is Glasgow Lanarkshire also and he is a clerk.

The immigration statement also says he was a clerk and that occupation is also on the childrenís birth records.    ie. Clerk , Commercial clerk, Spirit Merchant Salesman , Merchant Sales Clerk  etc

  So I think all the above is the correct story,  I would love to get a USA Marriage doc for them or Thomas Jnrís birth there.

Thank you so much for helping me get this part sorted out.   :)
I might see what there is to be found with George and Jean Craig.
Essnell

Offline RonaArm

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #41 on: Sunday 06 February 22 10:23 GMT (UK) »
Hi Essnell,

I am researching the same family and have come to similar conclusions.

In regards to Anthony McFadyen - I also have not found any evidence of him in Australia. Of interest, the birth certificate of Alexander in 1864 it says that they have 2 living children James (5 years) and Agnes (2 years) and 1 dead female. So that opens the possibility that Anthony was actually Agnes.  Agnes/Anthony was not present on the 1861 census (assuming that the Alexander, Christina and James Cameron are actually the McFadyen's), therefore born after 7 Apr 1861. They were listed as being 1 on the passenger manifest, therefore likely born before 11 November 1861.  Like you, I have not found a death in Queensland. Agnes/Anthony have died by 1867 when Christina is born as only James and Alexander are listed as living.  There are no children listed as deceased.

Of interest, when Robert Delzell is born, his birth certificate does not list James. It only lists Alexander, Christina, Elizabeth, Agnes and Rebecca, plus 1 dead female.  This makes me more inclined to think that James was the illegitimate child of Christina Brown.

The 1861 census backs this up, as James Brown is listed as being 3 years old - giving a birth of 1858. Of interest, a James Brown is born in Glasgow on 21 Oct 1858, an illegitimate child of Christina Brown.  From what I can see there is no James McFadyen's in the statutory registers, born to Alexander and Christina McFadyen. Furthermore, there are no James Cameron's born to Alexander and Christina. Between 1856-1860 there are no James McFadyen's registered with a mother's maiden name of Brown or any version of it. There are 2 James Cameron's but neither have a mother of Christina.  It's also possible that they did not register James' birth.

Rona

Offline RonaArm

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #42 on: Sunday 06 February 22 10:32 GMT (UK) »
In regards to the census in 1861, I also think that Alexander, Christina & James Brown are actually the McFadyens. This is largely based on following the movements of James Dewar Brown.

We all seem to agree that James Dewar Brown married Agnes Beveridge in Newton in 1835. The marriage record says that she was from Squaretown in Newton. According to the National Gazetter in 1868, Squaretown is in the parish of Newton, as is Edmonstone. James Dewar Brown says that he was residing in Airdrie, which is located in Lanarkshire, and he was a collier (coal miner). 

In 1841, we think that James, Agnes, Isabella and Christina are living in Coathill in the parish of Old Monkland, which is only about 5km from Airdrie. James is a coal miner. This matches perfectly with the marriage and links us to Christina. Only Isabella was born in the county of Lanarkshire.     

In 1847, Isabella Brown is residing with her brother, James Dewar Brown, miner, in Airdrie. This matches James' name, location and occupation of the 1841 census. James and Agnes likely named their first child after his sister (which also makes it likely that both Isabella's are named after another relative such as mother or grandmother but that's research for another day). The source for that is the Airdrie Sherrif Court decrees.

In 1851, James Dewar Brown (indexed as James Dewan Brown on Scotland's people and James Dowar Brown on Ancestry) is living in Old Cumnock, Ayrshire. He gives his place of birth as Edmonston, Midlothian and says that he's 40 years old and a coal miner.  This matches the age and occupation of James Brown in 1841 and the location and name in 1847.  The birthplace is critical because Edmonstone is a village in Newton, which links us back to the marriage and how he may have known Agnes.  The name and age match the marriage, 1841 and 1847 information.  The reason against this being our James is that on this census is Elizabeth Brown, daughter, aged 16.   This would mean that they were interchanging Elizabeth and Isabella - which is not uncommon but it is the only place it happens. Also, the place of birth is given as somewhere in Midlothian - but I can't read it (It's transcribed as Ruthin but could even be Preston when looking at the original)  However, in 1861, James' information remains the same and Elizabeth is listed as Isabella again.   Christina is not in the household in 1851 and I have not been able to locate her.

In 1859, Christina and Alexander marry. Christina gives her parents as James Brown and Agnes Beveridge, matching the marriage we have in 1835.   Agnes is deceased which matches the 1851 census entry.  I think the is witnesses J.D. Brown although you have I. D. Brown. So either James Dewar or Isabella.  This witness signs their name, as does Christina. Alexander is the only one who has an x for his signature. James is an Ironstone Miner, when in all previous records he is a Coal Miner.   However, in the 1861 census, he is also a ironstone miner.   

In 1861, James Brown, is living in Crofthead in the parish of Whitburn, which is approximately 22km from Airdrie. He is 52 years old, widow, born in Edmonston, Midlothian and a ironstone miner.  This links the occupation stated on the marriage, and the place of birth and age in the 1851 census.   Isabella is in the household as well, stating that she is born in Airdrie.  This matches the 1841 census, and she would have been born close to James' residence on the marriage certificate and the residence in 1847.   

Given that we can follow the path of James Brown in the primary sources, it seems highly unusual to me that there would be a completely different Alexander, Christina and James living as boarders in the home of James Brown.

Rona

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #43 on: Sunday 06 February 22 11:41 GMT (UK) »
The reason against this being our James is that on this census is Elizabeth Brown, daughter, aged 16.   This would mean that they were interchanging Elizabeth and Isabella - which is not uncommon but it is the only place it happens.
Isabella is originally a variant (the Spanish version) of the Hebrew name Elizabeth - see https://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Isabel.html. I'd say it's more common for a family to have both an Elizabeth and and Isabel(la), showing that they were regarded as separate names, than it is for the names to be used interchangeably, showing that they were regarded as the same name. I have come across a small number of the latter usage.

Quote
Also, the place of birth is given as somewhere in Midlothian - but I can't read it (It's transcribed as Ruthin but could even be Preston when looking at the original) 
Why not post an extract showing from the original showing the place and a line or two more to see if anyone recognises it?
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline RonaArm

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Re: Trying to find records for parents C 1830.
« Reply #44 on: Sunday 06 February 22 11:43 GMT (UK) »
 [/quote]Why not post an extract showing from the original showing the place and a line or two more to see if anyone recognises it?
[/quote]

It would seem that I'm struggling to insert an image.