Lyons Family in Gravesend 1871-1911

[simon316]

Hello
I have just joined this forum and very pleased to be with like minded colleagues, so this is my first (many I hope) post.
I have only been researching for 3 weeks and have a fair Tree built up but mostly unverified.  So far so good and happy with that.
I have a stumbling block, though.
My Great Grandmother on my father’s side, carrying the Lyons name, was Harriet Lyons, father unknown.  Her father was John Lyons and mother Mary Lyons.
However birthdates and places submitted on censuses are  all different for her parents and eldest sister who disappears after the 1881 census.
John Lyons her father, not the brother) = 1839 to 1844
with birthplaces given as Cork, Waterford and Ireland.
Mary Lyons (nee Davis) = 1845 to 1852 with birthplaces given as Uxbridge, West Trayton (Drayton, I assume) and Ireland.
Ellen Lyons = 1867 with birthplaces of West Trayton (as above) and Middlesex.
No trace of her after 1881.
Harriet Lyons = born Aug 31 1886 in Northfleet, Kent.  She is Catherine’s twin.
Could anyone help with any info for the parents (and Ellen) prior to coming to Gravesend and ideally the Irish place if birth and what happened thereafter to Ellen and Harriet?
I know that John Jr and Elizabeth had six to ten children each so I would guess a thousand or so descendants but I draw a blank with John Sr  and Mary Sr.
Any help VERY grateful.
My very best wishes to you all.
I hope this post is correct - any problems please let me know...

[Milliepede]

Hello and welcome 

You've done a lot in 3 weeks.

Ellen may have married between 1881-1891 and be under her husbands name in 1891.

The 1911 census for her parents will tell you how many children have been born to the marriage and how many are still living. 

[CaroleW]

Welcome from me too

My Great Grandmother on my father’s side, carrying the Lyons name, was Harriet Lyons, father unknown.  Her father was John Lyons and mother Mary Lyons.

You say her father was unknown but then name him as John Lyons?  Is she the same Harriet as shown below?

Harriet Lyons = born Aug 31 1886 in Northfleet, Kent.  She is Catherine’s twin.

GRO online shows their mothers maiden name as Davis

[CaroleW]

The 1891 shows a Katherine Lyons aged 4 with sister Margaret K also 4 b Northfleet - parents John & Mary

GRO entry

1886 LYONS, CATHERINE   mmn DAVIS  Dec Qtr STROOD  Volume 2A  Page 496
1886  LYONS, HARRIET    mmn    DAVIS  Dec Qtr STROOD  Volume 2A  Page 496   
 
1891 also has Annie Lyons b 1868 Gravesend

1868 LYONS, JANE  mmn DAVIS  Dec Quarter  GRAVESEND  Volume 2A  Page 402

[Milliepede]

I wonder if Frederick Charles Lyons - born Dec 1906 Gravesend belonged to Harriet? 

Not having much luck with Ellen. 

[CaroleW]

1881 indexed as Lines

Ellen is shown as 14 and Jane as 11

1871 indexed as Lions

[simon316]

Sorry - father of Harriet’s child is unknown.  Yes, child is Frederick, my Grandfather.
I have the birth certificates of Harriet and Catherine that show the were born within ten minutes of each other on 31 August 1886.  Name of certificate is Harriet but believe changed to Margaret or perhaps name misheard by census taker.
No visible records showing though for John Lyons prior to 1871, nothing whatsoever for Mary Lyons or Davis in Kent or Middlesex prior to 1871
Census takers didn’t help - in one census the name is recorded as Syors...
Kind regards

[Milliepede]

Presume John would have been in Ireland and maybe married there before coming to England.

The 1911 should state how many years married to narrow it down. 

Back to Ellen there was a marriage in Strood - 1889 I think - but I discounted it as it linked to a Helen Dyke who was in Ireland in 1901 and single and a death as Ellen F Dyke in Middlesex.

Maybe it needs a second look.  Groom was Edward Dyke - no children.

[simon316]

Presume John would have been in Ireland and maybe married there before coming to England.

The 1911 should state how many years married to narrow it down. 

Back to Ellen there was a marriage in Strood - 1889 I think - but I discounted it as it linked to a Helen Dyke who was in Ireland in 1901 and single and a death as Ellen F Dyke in Middlesex.

Maybe it needs a second look.  Groom was Edward Dyke - no children.

I am grateful for the help re how long married; even then, there has to be a difference of opinion.  I make it that John declared 50 years (making it 1861ish, 10 children, all alive but it is crossed out.
Mary says 40 years (though could be 50, 10 children all alive.
I have Jane, Harriet and Carherine’s birth certificates and ordered John Jr, William and hopefully Mary’s, plus Elizabeth’s marriage certificate.  One thing I know; in 1868 when Jane was born, they was at 15 Pump Alley and Mary Lyons was formerly Davis on her birth certificate (and Catherine and Harriet’s).  If nothing else, it chops three years off the searches.
I have made a request to Irish records in Cork but do not hold out any hope due to generic name and multiple birth dates and places.
On a possibly sad note, I think that not long (couple of months, tops) after the 1911 Census was compiled, Mary Lyons Sr passed away...
There’s a death recorded in 1911 but need to order the certificate for that, too.
Kind regards and best wishes...