Big Y testing

[Lindy Freedman]

My direct paternal line is broken with an illegitimate birth.  I wouldn't mind if we had history with my maiden name but it belonged to my ancestors long dead husband.

I paid for my brother to do the Y37 and just got the general R1b-M269 haplogroup and subclade, there were no close matches.  The nearest seem to be Austria, Switzerland, Dublin and England.   

I set off doing my own research and at 12 markers the DNA was shown to be Basque but also turned up on a Scottish Ancestry study and came up as 'Argyll and Bute'.  The hundreds of one step markers were mostly in Ireland and Scotland, there were some in Wales and quite a lot in England and the rest were scattered over a range which included Finland, Russia, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Portugal, Spain, France, Slovakia.

I did a lot of reading and found out this was typical Bell Beaker, they were looking for metals.  I went through thousands of other peoples results and I was convinced due to the matches that I would certainly get the result R1b-L21 but a nagging doubt made me upgrade to do the Y700.

I did that but it takes ages, someone suggested putting the codes in a predictor test so I did that and at 111 codes it's actually coming back as an R1b-U106 subclade which Family Tree DNA call 'Anglo Saxon', how does that explain all the matches in Ireland and Scotland?  I know Danes were in the SE and that Scandinavians carried it. The predicted final subclade includes hundreds of men from Scottish clans and from Ireland. The Anglo Saxons didn't go into Ireland. 

Logically I know that you cannot define an entire culture by a single Y haplogroup, I know L21 for example is in Scandinavia and Germany, clearly U106 is in Celtic countries.  I can see on a map that the Urnfield Culture is said to have moved into Britain but there wasn't a date.  I am not entirely sure how much information you actually get from a Y700 if you don't have any close matches and it's likely to be another couple of months before I get the results.  In the meantime if anyone has any knowledge of Gaels being U106 I would be interested to hear it.   

[melba_schmelba]

R1b as a whole is thought to represent the migration of Indo European speaking bell beaker/Yamnaya herders who spread from the Ukrainian steppes west across Germany, then expanded into most of western Europe, excepting a few areas such as Sardinia, Corsica, and Scandinavia which were protected either from being islands or harsh environments. They are thought to have wiped out either through competition, or disease or a combination, aided by likely technological superiority in their ability to make metal tools and weapons, basically entirely replacing the male lines who were part of the stone age stone circle builders c. 3000-2500 BC. So knowing you are R1b is the norm for west Europe. I assume you may have already used this tool that might help you to narrow down your subclade

https://www.ytree.morleydna.com/

These two youtube channels have several lengthy videos on Y-DNA and how Y-DNA tests have been used in surname studies

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDT68cnbbL6IkLWxS5Ao2UA/videos

https://www.youtube.com/c/DNAandFamilyTreeResearch/videos

This page has extensive information on the R1b haplogroup

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

[melba_schmelba]

You could also try searching FTDNA projects for whatever subclade Morley DNA suggests for you

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-project-search

[Lindy Freedman]

R1b as a whole is thought to represent the migration of Indo European speaking bell beaker/Yamnaya herders who spread from the Ukrainian steppes west across Germany, then expanded into most of western Europe, excepting a few areas such as Sardinia, Corsica, and Scandinavia which were protected either from being islands or harsh environments. They are thought to have wiped out either through competition, or disease or a combination, aided by likely technological superiority in their ability to make metal tools and weapons, basically entirely replacing the male lines who were part of the stone age stone circle builders c. 3000-2500 BC. So knowing you are R1b is the norm for west Europe. I assume you may have already used this tool that might help you to narrow down your subclade

https://www.ytree.morleydna.com/

These two youtube channels have several lengthy videos on Y-DNA and how Y-DNA tests have been used in surname studies

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDT68cnbbL6IkLWxS5Ao2UA/videos

https://www.youtube.com/c/DNAandFamilyTreeResearch/videos

This page has extensive information on the R1b haplogroup

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Thanks for the links.  I know a fair bit about the progression of R1b and how it took out the Farmers one way or another.  I am just surprised that FtDNA put the large clade R1b-U106 down as 'Anglo Saxon' when clearly that's scratching the surface of a small part of it's history. My Maternal line is J2a1a1 and that was also in the Alps which is interesting.  I will look at the surname videos, I must admit I see people talking about calculating 'strands' and 'blocks' and how many 'tandem repeats' there are etc and it's going over my head.  Maybe actually watching something will help.

R1b is definitely in Scandinavia in substantial quantities, it's just not dominant.

[melba_schmelba]

R1b as a whole is thought to represent the migration of Indo European speaking bell beaker/Yamnaya herders who spread from the Ukrainian steppes west across Germany, then expanded into most of western Europe, excepting a few areas such as Sardinia, Corsica, and Scandinavia which were protected either from being islands or harsh environments. They are thought to have wiped out either through competition, or disease or a combination, aided by likely technological superiority in their ability to make metal tools and weapons, basically entirely replacing the male lines who were part of the stone age stone circle builders c. 3000-2500 BC. So knowing you are R1b is the norm for west Europe. I assume you may have already used this tool that might help you to narrow down your subclade

https://www.ytree.morleydna.com/

These two youtube channels have several lengthy videos on Y-DNA and how Y-DNA tests have been used in surname studies

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDT68cnbbL6IkLWxS5Ao2UA/videos

https://www.youtube.com/c/DNAandFamilyTreeResearch/videos

This page has extensive information on the R1b haplogroup

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Thanks for the links.  I know a fair bit about the progression of R1b and how it took out the Farmers one way or another.  I am just surprised that FtDNA put the large clade R1b-U106 down as 'Anglo Saxon' when clearly that's scratching the surface of a small part of it's history. My Maternal line is J2a1a1 and that was also in the Alps which is interesting.  I will look at the surname videos, I must admit I see people talking about calculating 'strands' and 'blocks' and how many 'tandem repeats' there are etc and it's going over my head.  Maybe actually watching something will help.

R1b is definitely in Scandinavia in substantial quantities, it's just not dominant.

If you look at the phylogenic tree for U106 on eupedia, they label it 'Bronze Age Europe 2500-2000 BCE' which is probably a more appropriate description than 'Anglo-Saxon', although that may be appropriate for some or many of the U106 subclades.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-subclades

For the Morley DNA tool, I am not sure whether you can include the STR results from the non Big Y FTDNA tests, as it asks for SNP calls. As I understand it, people get the FTDNA Y tests up to Y-111 and then test for individual or several SNPs to try and work out their actual haplogroup subclade - or as you have done, just purchase the Big Y. This is explained in detail here

https://dna-explained.com/2017/11/29/glossary-terminal-snp/

It probably is the case that we will be able to start to make a haplogroup map for the British Isles as time goes on - many of the YDNA and MTDNA results on FTDNA list a specific place and time the furthest ancestor has been traced to so we will start to see patterns. In fact this may have already been done, if it has, please link!

[Lindy Freedman]

R1b as a whole is thought to represent the migration of Indo European speaking bell beaker/Yamnaya herders who spread from the Ukrainian steppes west across Germany, then expanded into most of western Europe, excepting a few areas such as Sardinia, Corsica, and Scandinavia which were protected either from being islands or harsh environments. They are thought to have wiped out either through competition, or disease or a combination, aided by likely technological superiority in their ability to make metal tools and weapons, basically entirely replacing the male lines who were part of the stone age stone circle builders c. 3000-2500 BC. So knowing you are R1b is the norm for west Europe. I assume you may have already used this tool that might help you to narrow down your subclade

https://www.ytree.morleydna.com/

These two youtube channels have several lengthy videos on Y-DNA and how Y-DNA tests have been used in surname studies

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDT68cnbbL6IkLWxS5Ao2UA/videos

https://www.youtube.com/c/DNAandFamilyTreeResearch/videos

This page has extensive information on the R1b haplogroup

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml

Thanks for the links.  I know a fair bit about the progression of R1b and how it took out the Farmers one way or another.  I am just surprised that FtDNA put the large clade R1b-U106 down as 'Anglo Saxon' when clearly that's scratching the surface of a small part of it's history. My Maternal line is J2a1a1 and that was also in the Alps which is interesting.  I will look at the surname videos, I must admit I see people talking about calculating 'strands' and 'blocks' and how many 'tandem repeats' there are etc and it's going over my head.  Maybe actually watching something will help.

R1b is definitely in Scandinavia in substantial quantities, it's just not dominant.

If you look at the phylogenic tree for U106 on eupedia, they label it 'Bronze Age Europe 2500-2000 BCE' which is probably a more appropriate description than 'Anglo-Saxon', although that may be appropriate for some or many of the U106 subclades.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#R1b-subclades

For the Morley DNA tool, I am not sure whether you can include the STR results from the non Big Y FTDNA tests, as it asks for SNP calls. As I understand it, people get the FTDNA Y tests up to Y-111 and then test for individual or several SNPs to try and work out their actual haplogroup subclade - or as you have done, just purchase the Big Y. This is explained in detail here

https://dna-explained.com/2017/11/29/glossary-terminal-snp/

It probably is the case that we will be able to start to make a haplogroup map for the British Isles as time goes on - many of the YDNA and MTDNA results on FTDNA list a specific place and time the furthest ancestor has been traced to so we will start to see patterns. In fact this may have already been done, if it has, please link!

Yes, I think a lot of people do just get to R1b-U106 or R1b-L21 and stop. My brothers predicted subclade FGC8410 seems to include about 400 Irish men and 400 Scottish men, plus people from most places in Europe including a lot of English matches as one would expect, but not as much as Ireland and Scotland. A map would be a great idea. 

I believe Gaul stretched from the Rhine right across to cover most of France.  The Rhine used to be a sacred Celtic river.  Gauls came to England in large numbers, some probably moved on to Ireland and then of course as 'Gaels' into Scotland.  They say men in the Midlands are virtually identical to Friesian men but of course that area was also part of Gaul and it was the main route for Beaker males.

I think as more people do a deeper test the pattern will emerge as you say, a map would be a good idea. 

[melba_schmelba]

One thing you have to be careful of is thinking of Scots and Irish simply as 'Celts'. Most of what is now the Scottish lowlands was once part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Bernicia, and those people never left after it was conquered by the Gaelic kings from the north west, in fact the Scots language comes from Old English
https://dsl.ac.uk/

Ireland had a large influx of Normans from the 13th century onward, many surnames thought of as typically Irish are in fact Norman - but Normans themselves were a mixed people of male Scandinavian, Breton, Flemish and Frankish lineages. And then you had the English settlers from the 16th century onward who displaced many of those Norman ruling families who stuck to their Catholicism and were dispossessed as a result. Yes many descendants of that Protestant Ascendancy did leave the whole of Ireland as a whole, many fled to Northern Ireland on partition, but many still remained.

[Lindy Freedman]

One thing you have to be careful of is thinking of Scots and Irish simply as 'Celts'. Most of what is now the Scottish lowlands was once part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Bernicia, and those people never left after it was conquered by the Gaelic kings from the north west, in fact the Scots language comes from Old English
https://dsl.ac.uk/

Ireland had a large influx of Normans from the 13th century onward, many surnames thought of as typically Irish are in fact Norman - but Normans themselves were a mixed people of male Scandinavian, Breton, Flemish and Frankish lineages. And then you had the English settlers from the 16th century onward who displaced many of those Norman ruling families who stuck to their Catholicism and were dispossessed as a result. Yes many descendants of that Protestant Ascendancy did leave the whole of Ireland as a whole, many fled to Northern Ireland on partition, but many still remained.

Yes, I realise the Danes were on the East side but the first 12 markers take me to Argyll and Bute.  Obviously that is way back but I have noted that lots of clan members are in fact that same fgc8410 haplogroup, some well known and unexpected surnames.  It's quite a mystery and I think there is more to learn.   

[melba_schmelba]

One thing you have to be careful of is thinking of Scots and Irish simply as 'Celts'. Most of what is now the Scottish lowlands was once part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Bernicia, and those people never left after it was conquered by the Gaelic kings from the north west, in fact the Scots language comes from Old English
https://dsl.ac.uk/

Ireland had a large influx of Normans from the 13th century onward, many surnames thought of as typically Irish are in fact Norman - but Normans themselves were a mixed people of male Scandinavian, Breton, Flemish and Frankish lineages. And then you had the English settlers from the 16th century onward who displaced many of those Norman ruling families who stuck to their Catholicism and were dispossessed as a result. Yes many descendants of that Protestant Ascendancy did leave the whole of Ireland as a whole, many fled to Northern Ireland on partition, but many still remained.

Yes, I realise the Danes were on the East side but the first 12 markers take me to Argyll and Bute.  Obviously that is way back but I have noted that lots of clan members are in fact that same fgc8410 haplogroup, some well known and unexpected surnames.  It's quite a mystery and I think there is more to learn.

Not the Danes, that was later in England, the Danelaw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw

Bernicia was established in what is the 2/3 of the central and eastern side of what is now the Scottish lowlands, going all the way up to Edinburgh in the sixth century by Anglo-Saxons, possibly Anglo-Saxon Roman soldiers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernicia

Bear in mind quite a few Scottish surnames are also thought to originate with a Norman ancestor, such as the Bruces, and others like the Stewarts had a Breton forebear.