How do I find Mary Ann Burns ??

[LauraJC]

Hello and thanks for reading.

I'm trying to find my great great grandmother, but I'm not getting anywhere, and I'd be really grateful of any advice anyone could give.

Her name was Mary Ann Burns, she had a child Sarah Burns in 1884 in Dundee East Poorhouse, and my great grandmother Mary Burns in 1889 also in Dundee Poorhouse. The father is on both records but they weren't married and he died in 1889. My grandmother and aunt tell me her family were associated with Horsewater Wynd in Dundee. When her children were young they were taken into the Smyllum Orphanage even though their mother was still alive.

She went to Wales (North Wales??) according to my grandmother. She was Catholic. On my great grandmother's marriage cert in 1909 she was listed as deceased.

I've been through Welsh records but I can't find anything definitive.

If anyone has any idea how I could find.

[Ruskie]

Welcome to rootschat Laura.

A good place to start - the census. Have you found any of the family in any censuses, either in Scotland or Wales?

[LauraJC]

Hi Ruskie,

Thanks very much. No I haven't found any of the family in censuses any further back. I have been on Scotland's People and found a Mary Burns born in 1863 in Dundee who could be her. I don't know how to find censuses or how to find Welsh records. I've tried on ancestry.com but could not find anything.

[Ruskie]

The obvious problem you are likely to have is that the name is so common, and there are likely to be numerous people with that name.

Can you tell us the information on Sarah and Mary Ann’s birth certificates please?

[Ruskie]

I have no idea if this is relevant, but in the 1891 Scottish census there is a 3 year old Mary Burns born in Dundee, an inmate of the Dundee Combination Poorhouse.

There is also a 32 year old Mary Burns, who may or may not be related. This Mary Burns is born Ireland, occupation is “formerly millworker jute”. There is no Sarah with them. No Sarahs which fit the criteria are showing up in the 1891 Scottish census.

On Mary and Sarah’s birth certificates was their mother Mary’s occupation given?

[Ruskie]

In 1901 it looks like Mary, age 11, a scholar, is in the Smyllum Orphanage, which it seems that you are aware of.

Sarah is there too, aged 15, a scullerymaid.

[Ruskie]

It might be worth contacting:

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/scancatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GB1091%2fRI&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=y&tp=n&k=Smyllum&ko=o&r=GB1091&ro=s&

who seem to have Smyllum records. They may have details of admission or family.

[Gadget]

Welcome to Rootschat 

There's an interesting family boarding with the Phinns in the 1881 Census in Dundee:

93 Ann Street, Dundee

James Phinn, 40, gen labourer, b. Ireland
(and family)
Mary Ann Burns, boarder, unmar, 30, Mill Worker (Jute) , b. Ireland
Thomas Burns, boarder, 7, b. Dundee
Margaret Burns, 5, b. Dundee

There were 4 or 5 birth registrations for a Margaret so I looked for a Thomas:

March 14 1874
Thoams Burns (illegitimate)
b. 11 William Street, King Street, Dundee.
Mother - Mary Ann Burns, Jute Preparer

I don't know if this is your Mary Ann but it's worth keeping on the back burner as this seems to fit with Ruskie's Reply #4


Gadget

[scotmum]

It was not unusual for children from Dundee to be placed at Smyllum in and around the 1880s, even those who still had a parent living. Often, they were considered to be paupers.The Dundee Parochial Board (or at least certain members of same), seemed to look on it as being as economical to do that, as to maintain them at home, albeit ratepayers of Dundee disputed this and there was public outcry. At the time, it was suggested that the Church discouraged local Dundee families from taking on such children, as the priests supposedly had a greater interest in supporting Smyllum than seeing local families paid to take them on. As an example, Dundee Parish at one point  seemingly sent 54 children, whilst Glasgow only set 11.

 You say the father was named on both birth cerificates, albeit not married to Mary Ann, what was his name?