Author Topic: Norman name?  (Read 492 times)

Offline JD46

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Norman name?
« on: Thursday 29 April 21 18:12 BST (UK) »
I have traced my family line back to John Crowhurst (1480-1540), who married Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land. This makes me wonder if the Shernfolds were descended from the Normans. Can anyone help?

Offline Rena

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 29 April 21 20:09 BST (UK) »
I have traced my family line back to John Crowhurst (1480-1540), who married Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land. This makes me wonder if the Shernfolds were descended from the Normans. Can anyone help?

You need somebody who has more ideas on the Norman conquest than me.  I believe the spelling of "Margeret" has no bearing  on the questions you are posing.  I believe the French equivalent of the English Margaret is "Marguerite".

This webpage shows Crowhurst to be an early place [email protected]
https://opendomesday.org/place/TQ7512/crowhurst/

There's an historic house in Shernfold Park but I can only find mention of it being built in 1855.
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1028366

This is in the historic village of Frant, which is described in Genuki
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/SSX/Frant.

It's a puzzle why Margeret had the separate "De" between given name and surname; unless her surname was DeShernfold/D'shernfold, with the "De" joined to the stem, which is usually how modern day surnames are shown.  . 

Surname became law circa 1068, with names being chosen from the place people lived, or the occupations they had., or on a person's looks/traits.

Best Wishes.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline TreeSpirit

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 29 April 21 20:12 BST (UK) »
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3


Offline Rena

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 30 April 21 00:31 BST (UK) »
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3

Well done - I didn't know that web site existed !
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy<br />MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell<br />Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie<br />Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell<br />Perthshire: Brown Ferguson<br />Wales: McCarthy, Thomas<br />England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells<br />Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline markheal

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 30 April 21 01:20 BST (UK) »
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3

Well done - I didn't know that web site existed !
...  Margeret de Shernfold (1480-1548). Her name is obviously French, and her family seem to have owned land.

Maybe ... , but maybe not if her name has a link to Shernfold Park:
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/browse/id/5328722eb47fc40c360003f3

Well done - I didn't know that web site existed !

Useful website..... Are there an equivalents for Scotland, Wales and Ireland?
http://epns.nottingham.ac.uk/about
ANSTRUTHER,Worldwide
BENNETT,
BRETT, Sligo
CARNEGIE,
CROCKFORD, Hampshire.
ELLIOT,
GAUNTLETT, Worldwide
HEAL, HEALE, HELE, Chew Magna, Somerset
HENRY, Sligo
MABEY, Dorset
POPE, London docklands,
STANDERWICK, Somerset,
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Vance Mead

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 30 April 21 04:47 BST (UK) »
As Rena has noted, this must be Shernfold in Frant, Sussex.

Here is John Crowherst in Frant, Sussex, in Common Pleas in 1529.

Third entry:
Sussex. Jury between Thomas Rayner, of Maresfeld, querent (plaintiff) and John Crowherst, of Frentt, husbandman, for debt.

This entry is calling for the sheriff to empanel a jury.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1060/aCP40no1060fronts/IMG_4898.htm
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs

Offline Vance Mead

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 30 April 21 05:07 BST (UK) »
Here's a slightly earlier Common Pleas case, from 1523.

Second to last entry:
Sussex. George Nevyle, knight, Lord Bergevenny versus William Maynard, senior, of Retherfeld, husbandman; Thomas Hotheley, of Retherfeld, husbandman; John Crowherst, of Frante, husbandman or yeoman. Debt of 100 marks (about 67 pounds) from each of them.

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT3/H8/CP40no1038/aCP40no1038fronts/IMG_0028.htm
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs

Offline JD46

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 30 April 21 10:31 BST (UK) »
Thank you for the replies everyone. I am curious about the lady John Crowhurst married, in around 1498. ‘Margeret de Shernfold’ certainly refers to Shernfold in Sussex. Does that mean her family owned land there (a manor?). Why the use of ‘de’? Was that common at the time? Or does it suggest some kind of Norman ancestry? As I understand it, William parcelled out land to his followers after 1066, who then referred to themselves as, for example, ‘Roger de (i.e ‘of,’ or ‘from’) Smithfield’ (meaning Roger, ‘from’/‘owner of’ the manor or land around Smithfield). Was she descended from a Norman who was given, or seized, land in Shernfold?

Offline Vance Mead

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Re: Norman name?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 30 April 21 11:04 BST (UK) »
"de" just means from, in either Latin or French, usually without any suggestion of Norman descent. The records from Common Pleas that I posted earlier are in Latin. John Crowherst, for example, was "de Frante".
Mead - Herts, Bucks, Essex
Pontifex - Bucks
Goldhurst - London, Middx, Herts
Kellogg/Kelhog - Essex, Cambs