Author Topic: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales  (Read 1302 times)

Offline MrsS2012

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Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« on: Thursday 29 April 21 22:41 BST (UK) »
Hello everyone,

Iíve just been having another dig around in my family tree after quite a long break away and am still really really stuck on my great grandmother! I thought looking it over again with fresh eyes would reap some results but so far no good.
Her name was Emily Hales and apparently she was born around 1904 in Islington. I found a birth record for a Emily Hailes for 1904 in Stepney but not sure if this is her? She married Herbert Douglas in 1921 and George Davies in 1946.
My Nan never spoke about her grandparents, I donít know if she knew them or not?
I believe Emilyís father was called Frederick as I have her second marriage certificate to George Davies and she has put her father down as Frederick and his occupation as a leather worker?? (difficult to make out the second word) he was deceased in 1946 when she married George but other then that I know nothing about him and havenít been able to find anything that fits.

Not sure where else to try. Although I have found quite a few records relating to Emily and Frederick Hales I have such limited info I donít know if these records relate to them or not?

My mum remembers her mum saying that Emily was abandoned as a baby but unfortunately my Nan had a bit of tendency to make things up so not sure where to go with this?

Any advice and tips welcomed.. been out of the game a while so could be missing something obvious!!

Thank you!

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 29 April 21 23:13 BST (UK) »
Have you looked for her on the 1939 register to establish her full birthdate?

The 1904 birth has mmn Brenan

Have you looked for a Frederick Hailes/Hales on the 1911 census?

When & where did she die?
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Offline Dundee

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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #2 on: Friday 30 April 21 00:22 BST (UK) »
Why do you think Emily was born in Islington?  You need the first marriage certificate, not the second.  She would have only been 17 years old so her address and the witness names might hold some clues.  You also need to see the details she gave then about her father.

Debra  :)

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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #3 on: Friday 30 April 21 08:00 BST (UK) »
Going by what appears in the 1939, Emily is on her own, no Herbert with her, this is most likely to be her birth registration.

HAILES, EMILY       BRENAN 
GRO Reference: 1904  S Quarter in STEPNEY  Volume 01C  Page 377

Using the Hales spelling does not bring up a birth in the SQ of 1904

Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire


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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #4 on: Friday 30 April 21 08:32 BST (UK) »
Not sure what to think here.  Herbert appears to have married twice.

Marriages Dec 1912
Barnett    Alice M    Douglas    Willesden    3a   551
Douglas    Herbert E    Barnett    Willesden    3a   551

Marriages Dec 1921
Douglas    Herbert E    Hales    Kensington    1a   300
Hales    Emily    Douglas    Kensington    1a   300

I can find Herbert with an Alice and son George in the 1939

Going by the birth date this would appear to be Herbert's birth registration

DOUGLAS, HERBERT  ERNEST     SCHNEEGANS 
GRO Reference: 1886  M Quarter in WEST HAM  Volume 04A  Page 24

On the face of it, it appears that Herbert committed bigamy with Emily.

There is a death for Herbert E Douglas in 1947

Deaths Mar 1947   
Douglas    Herbert E    61    Willesden    5f   721

Gives a birth year of 1886 which would match the birth given above.

There is a probate record for this Herbert.  Address was 5 Wood Close, Kingsbury, London.  Died 12th February 1947.  Probate to George James Douglas.  This address is the same as the one in the 1939 Register.

If anyone has a sub to Ancestry you can see the marriage cert for the 1912 marriage of Herbert to Alice.  It comes under the heading of London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754 - 1932.  This would give you Herbert's father's name which could be checked with the 1921 marriage with Emily.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #5 on: Friday 30 April 21 08:40 BST (UK) »
I've found what looks like the right Herbert in the 1891 census.

Living at Dunmow Road, West Ham, London & Essex with widowed father George and siblings.

Registration district   West Ham
Archive reference   RG12
Piece number   1314
Folio   78
Page   43

This looks like his parents marriage

Marriages Jun 1872
DOUGLAS George        Islington    1b   329
SCHNEEGANS    Rosina        Islington    1b   329

You really need to get the 1921 marriage certificate to see who the fathers are of both Herbert and Emily.
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Online BumbleB

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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #6 on: Friday 30 April 21 09:11 BST (UK) »
30 November 1912 - St Mary, Willesden

Herbert Ernest Douglas, 26, Bachelor, Tin Smith.  Father:  George (deceased), Ironmonger's Assistant
Alice Mary Barnett, 28, spinster.  Father:  James (deceased), Platelayer

Witnesses:  Arthur Edgar Douglas and Annie Eliza Barnett



Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
If you don't ask the question, you won't get an answer.
He/she who never made a mistake, never made anything.
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #7 on: Friday 30 April 21 09:19 BST (UK) »
there is this death in June qtr 1940 which fits with the age of Emily, (assuming Herbert was similar age).   Again, need that marriage cert.

Douglas    Herbert E    35    Islington    1b   282


I thought could be this birth

Births Mar 1905   (>99%)
Douglas    Herbert Edward        Islington    1b   334.  Mother's maiden name BLAKER


There is a marriage - image of cert is on Ancestry

Feb 22 1889
William DOUGLAS 21 bachelor  footman father Joseph DOUGLAS deceased a Miller
Louisa BLAKER 23 spinster father Albert BLAKER a Shoemaker

both at 3 Palmerston Road, South Acton
Side tracked to a friendís very interesting Norfolk families. MORGAN, PRATT, HORNOR, SUCKLING, GLEANE etc. And in London DOWNES, du CROZ, MORGAN (same MORGANs as the Norwich lot)

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Re: Hit a brick wall.. Emily Hales
« Reply #8 on: Friday 30 April 21 09:37 BST (UK) »
Published tree with that information has several daughters born to Emily and Herbert so I imagine MrsS2012 has the right Herbert.
The marriage details are not given though - just Emilyís father as Frederick.
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