Gilbert - last ditch effort.

[bevj]

I've been trying to solve the mystery of my Gilberts for years and have had zero success.  I've come to the conclusion that it's an unbreachable brick wall - either that or I'm missing something - but before throwing my hands up for good I thought I'd have one last try and see if any of the clever Rootschatters can come up with anything.

This is what I know.

My 3 x great grandmother was Martha Gilbert who married Alfred Lloyd in Edgbaston on 27th December 1858 in what appears to have been a double ceremony with her brother William.
Their father is William Gilbert, born on 8th May 1812 to John and Phoebe Gilbert and baptised at St. Philips cathedral in August 1812.  William senior is a clock and watch maker, as is his son and his son-in-law Alfred.  They are well documented in the trade directories of the time, William's business was run from Farm Street, Birmingham.
In 1851 William sr. is a widower (38) living with son William (16) born Handsworth, John Lee a lodger aged 71 and Phoebe Lee a servant aged 38.

In 1861:
William 48, master clock maker employing 1 man and 2 boys
Phoebe Lees 50, clock maker's housekeeper
Alfred Lloyd 24, journeyman clock maker
Martha Lloyd 24  born Handsworth
along with Alfred and Martha's first child.

In 1871:
William Gilbert  58
Phoebe Lees  60
Alfred Lloyd 36
Martha Lloyd 35
plus more children.

William senior dies in 1878

What I don't know despite a lot of looking
- I can't find the family in 1841
- I can't find birth or baptism records for either Martha or William junior.
- I can't find a marriage for William senior or a death for his wife.  Trees on Ancestry have him as marrying one Maria Warburton but this is clearly not correct as that William was a tailor.
- I can't verify the parents of William, John and Phoebe.  There is a marriage in Handsworth in 1794 for a John Gilbert and Phoebe Davis.  But I have only found siblings for William born between 1805 and 1810 (he being the youngest) and a ten-year gap seems impossible.  They both died before 1841.

I've thought a lot about the relationship with Phoebe Lee(s) and wondered if the children were hers, or even if someone somewhere had changed their surname, maybe William's wife was a Lee, but it's all guesswork and I can't find any records at all.

This is a real teaser but if anyone can come up with a bright idea I will be really grateful!
Thank you in advance and sorry for the long spiel.

Bev

[CaroleW]

Phoebe is with her father John in Staffs in 1841 - no children

HO107 Piece 1005/6  Folio 46 Page 13

[Jomot]

Not quite sure where this fits in as she would be too young to be the mother of Martha & William, but from the Staffordshire Advertiser 20 Mar 1847:

On Friday week, deeply lamented, Ann Mary wife of Mr Wm Gilbert, watchmaker, Stafford, in her 23rd year.

Aris's Birmingham Gazette 09 Nov 1846
....on the same day (Tuesday last) at Whittington by the Rev C Floyer, Mr Wm Gilbert, watch-maker, of Stafford, to Anne Mary, only daughter of the late Joseph Clarke, farmer, Whittington.

[Neale1961]

Their father is William Gilbert, born on 8th May 1812 to John and Phoebe Gilbert and baptised at St. Philips cathedral in August 1812. 

How certain are you that this is your William? The census consistently gives his year of birth as 1813. Have you looked at the possible birth in that year?

Do you know where William did his apprenticeship in clock/watch making? Have you found any apprenticeship papers that may give his father's name?

[AMBLY]

The marriages:
Edgbaston on 27th December 1858

Alfred LLOYD full age, Bachelor, Tube Maker
Martha B GILBERT, Spinster, full age
Both of Edgebaston
Witness: W Gilbert, M Gilbert

William GILBERT, full age, bachelor, Watchmaker
Mary CHETWOOD, full age, Spinster
Both of Edgebaston
Witness:  A Lloyd  M Lloyd

None of the marriages - these two, and on the other pages - have fathers of the Bride or groom listed.

And on the 1861 and 1871 Census, when the LLoyds are in Widower William GILBERT's household, nowhere does it state any relationship between William Gilbert & Martha Lloyd, or between William Gilbert & Martha's children.

I'm pretty certain on the marriage 1858, Martha is written as "Martha B Gilbert"?  Although she signs as "Martha Gilbert".

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

CENSUS 1841:
HO107 Piece 1005 Book 6  Folio 46 Page 13
Mill Street, Birmingham
John LEES, 62, Silk Doubler, Y
Phoebe LEES 25, Silk Skinner, Y
John LEES 25, Silk Twister, Y
Hannah LEES 12,  Y
John YEOMANS 35, Ag Lab, No
Elizabeth YEOMANS 25, Silk  Skinner,  Y

Cheers
AMBLY

[AMBLY]

Aris's Birmingham Gazette 09 Nov 1846
....on the same day (Tuesday last) at Whittington by the Rev C Floyer, Mr Wm Gilbert, watch-maker, of Stafford, to Anne Mary, only daughter of the late Joseph Clarke, farmer, Whittington.

Here are the lines of that 1846 marriage :

MARRIAGE 3 Nov 1846, Parish Church of Whittington
William Gilbert, of age, bachelor, Watchmaker,  of Whittington, Father: William Gilbert - Watchmaker.
Ann Mary Clarke, of age, spinster,  of Whittington, Father: Joseph Clarke - Farmer
Witness: Joseph Clarke, Eliza Smith

Cheers
AMBLY

[Jomot]

The only records I can see for Martha are as the daughter of Enoch & Phoebe Gilbert

Baptism at Christ Church, West Bromwich, 23 Jul 1837 (born 13 May 1837) Martha d/o Enoch & Phoebe Gilbert, Mares Green, Nailer.

Enoch, Phoebe & Martha are together in 1841 at Truddle Lane, West Bromwich, but I haven't spotted a marriage for them yet.

Phoebe may have died in Q4 1841, West Bromwich, aged 39. 

Banns were called from 24 Dec 1843 to 7 Jan 1844 in Tipton for Enoch Gilbert & Sarah Instone, and there is a marriage registration for them in Dudley RD in Q1 1844.

In 1851 at Loveday Street, West Bromwich, there is a Martha Gilbert aged 13 born West Bromwich, cousin to Elijah & Martha Arter (nee Simcox) who married in 1838.

In 1861 Martha is shown as a lodger to William Gilbert, not his daughter.

Possible death for Enoch in Aston in 1856, aged 53, and a baptism for him in West Brom in 1803, the son of Joseph & Martha.

[Jomot]

Not sure how I missed it, but Enoch's first marriage was at Handsworth:

31 Jul 1831: Enock Gilbert & Phoebe Law, both of Handsworth, witnesses Samuel Smith & Leah Evans

His second marriage was at Tipton on 10 Jan 1844:

Enoch Gilbert full age, widower, labourer, West Bromwich, father Joseph Gilbert, labourer, deceased
Sarah Instone full age widow, West Bromwich, father Benjamin Jacobs, butcher, deceased
Wits: William Crowley & Thomas Shorthouse