Author Topic: Origins of my Irish ancestors  (Read 982 times)

Offline Zaphod99

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Origins of my Irish ancestors
« on: Thursday 13 May 21 16:42 BST (UK) »
I am interested in Patrick (possibly Paterick) McDonald (NOT MacDonald) and his wife Margaret Hopkins who are seen in Throston, Durham in 1871 onwards with a 6yo son born in Durham about 1865, giving their birthplaces as Ireland. They were born about 1840. I don't know where they married, probably in Ireland.

I know nothing about Irish research, but would like to know their county of origin. Any guidance welcome.

Zaph

Offline heywood

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 13 May 21 16:54 BST (UK) »
Free BMD has a marriage:

June quarter 1865 Hartlepool vol 10 pg 223

Margaret Hopkins and Patrick McDonel

are  on the same page.

You would get the fathers’ names then. I see that Margaret Hopkins (mother) is with them in 1881. Have you followed through the censuses to see if a county/place is given?
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Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #2 on: Friday 14 May 21 00:11 BST (UK) »
Zaph.

A word of advice. You have said “NOT MacDonald”. In my experience as an Irish researcher, you need to keep an open mind on spelling of personal and place names. If you don’t you’ll come unstuck. MacDonald, McDonald, M’Donald, M’Donnell etc are all variations of the same name. Spelling will vary according to the whim of the person recording the information. There was no “correct” version.  If you decide that your family only spelled the name McDonald, you probably wont get very far with Irish records. All spellings are possible.

Here are 2 examples of spelling varying within the same family in the same census:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Sharvogues/Drumsough/920148/

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1851/Antrim/Upper_Glenarm/Carncastle/Four_Score_Acre/5/

Expect the spelling to vary. It was the norm.

Elwyn


Offline shume

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #3 on: Friday 14 May 21 08:35 BST (UK) »
From England and Wales Civil registration index:
A possible death for Patrick McDonald
Name   
Patrick McDonald
Birth   
abt 1842
Death   
Jul 1904 Durham, Hartlepool

The 1901 Census has him as a widower boarding with Michael McDonald (?son) in Hartlepool.
If you purchase his death certificate there is of course no guarantee that his place of birth in Ireland will be given or be accurate as the  information is only as good as the informant believes.
Ditto Margaret's death certificate.
I have been researching Irish records for many years,, without a place name it is a very difficult search.
There is a record of a Patrick McDonald serving 12months Durham gaol for wounding in 1882 which may or may not be him.
HUME: Fermanagh, Donegal,Sligo,Australia
PASFIELD: Essex, London
SHAW/STANLEY: Co Waterford,Ireland, Australia

Offline Zaphod99

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #4 on: Friday 14 May 21 09:51 BST (UK) »
Heywood, I really learned a lesson. I should have searched for both parties. That is wonderful thank you. Each successive  census just gives Ireland.

Elwyn, noted and understood.

Shume, thank you. I found him on the other senses and the death. I had also discovered there were two Patrick McDonald's in the area at the time so which one was the villain I'm not sure.

Thank you all. I still wish I knew which county they came from.

Zaph

Offline heywood

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #5 on: Friday 14 May 21 10:21 BST (UK) »
The marriage certificate should have both fathers’ names.
This might help in searching for records in Ireland. The witness names might help too.
If they were Catholic, there are some/many Catholic baptisms online. Ancestry and FindMyPast have indexes and links to the records.
The links are to these records https://registers.nli.ie/ but you need the parish for a direct free search.

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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #6 on: Friday 14 May 21 10:52 BST (UK) »
From England and Wales Civil registration index:
A possible death for Patrick McDonald
Name   
Patrick McDonald
Birth   
abt 1842
Death   
Jul 1904 Durham, Hartlepool

The 1901 Census has him as a widower boarding with Michael McDonald (?son) in Hartlepool.
If you purchase his death certificate there is of course no guarantee that his place of birth in Ireland will be given or be accurate as the  information is only as good as the informant believes.
Ditto Margaret's death certificate.
I have been researching Irish records for many years,, without a place name it is a very difficult search.
There is a record of a Patrick McDonald serving 12months Durham gaol for wounding in 1882 which may or may not be him.

As far as I'm aware, English death certificate for this period do NOT list place of birth.

Along with the other spelling variations to consider I would add McDaniel.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline iluleah

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #7 on: Friday 14 May 21 12:22 BST (UK) »
I think as many of the answers along with information you have already recieved is don't get tied up in detail and finding PoB before you find each and every record you can and all the information contained in each and everyone of those records....and for Irish records things that are important are the jobs they did, maybe who they worked for ( eg transfered from Ireland by the landowner they worked for who had a job available in England for them) their religion, the naming patterns of any children they had.... their marriage certificate is a key record you need to purchase, which will give their fathers names ( hopefully their real names) the witnesses and you can then research more about those people to see if they are 'visiting' from Ireland friends/family, it 'could' give you a clue when you eventually start looking at Irish records

As Elwyn said about the spelling it was irrelevant back 200 yrs ago many people didn't read/write and so records were written by other people and words formed how they sounded, spelling didn't become important until the majority of people could read/write ( and check how their name was spelt) , sociality had increased in numbers and we all had to fill out forms and that wasn't until later in the 20th century...we are deeply offended now if someone spells our name wrong, back 200 plus years it really wasn't important
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline Elwyn Soutter

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Re: Origins of my Irish ancestors
« Reply #8 on: Friday 14 May 21 13:38 BST (UK) »


As Elwyn said about the spelling it was irrelevant back 200 yrs ago many people didn't read/write and so records were written by other people and words formed how they sounded, spelling didn't become important until the majority of people could read/write ( and check how their name was spelt) , sociality had increased in numbers and we all had to fill out forms and that wasn't until later in the 20th century...we are deeply offended now if someone spells our name wrong, back 200 plus years it really wasn't important

Adding to the above, in 1899, the Rev Smith reviewed the early records of Antrim 1st Presbyterian church (covering the years 1674 to c 1736). He noted: “Even the same word is not always spelled alike by the same hand. Indeed spelling with most of the recording officials (and they must have been fairly numerous) was a matter of the most sublime indifference. The name William, for instance, is spelled 3 different ways in as many lines; while Donegore, a neighbouring parish, is spelled 10 different ways; but these extend over a good number of years. Many families names are spelled phonetically, while others are given in the most round-about fashion.”

So expect spelling to vary. That was the norm.


Elwyn