Author Topic: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants  (Read 215 times)

Offline Drayke

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Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« on: Friday 04 June 21 17:30 BST (UK) »
Hi All,

I have a situation which I need clarification on and hope someone can help and hopefully wont be confusing.

In my ancestry I have a situation where arms were granted to an individual in c1010 (Argent, three lions passant in pale gules) which according to Harleian MS's passed in direct decent (in c1425) to a male decent (PERSON A) who married an armorial heiress (Ermine, a lion rampt. sable, in a border gules, charged with eight bezants) and by jure uxoris took on the estate of his wife.

I understand this means that the son of this person and the descendants could use "1st .argent, three lions passant in pale gules; 2, ermine, a lion rampant sable in a border gules charged with eight bezants" of which is used by latter descendants it seems (eldest line great grandson of the below mentioned Person B) of which that line became extinct.

The issue is as follows the great grandson (PERSON B) of PERSON A has the following arms: "Quarterly 1 & 4, ermine, a lion rampant sable in a border gules charged with eight annulets ar.; 2 & 3, Party per bend sinister ermine and ermines, a lion rampant or.". This descendant didn't marry an heiress nor did his father or grandfather. Would these arms then be considered a difference despite being the first son? There is a possibility the other arms are from a line further back perhaps. Could it also be used with another quartering for the arms of the individual from c1010?

Lastly, if a person (a grandson of PERSON B) elsewhere is shown to have another arms which I assume was granted to him (found at https://archive.org/details/b22650611/page/270/mode/2up?q=%22dean+of+St.+Asaph%22 ) does this replace the previous arms or can the previous arms be used as well and possibly quartered with the new grant?


Offline Kiltpin

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Re: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« Reply #1 on: Friday 04 June 21 17:48 BST (UK) »
The Norman Conquest was from 1066 onwards. There was nothing prior to that we would today recognise as heraldry in England. In fact the first historically recorded and verified case of arms being given to an individual was in 1086. 

There was no granting authority anywhere in Great Britain before early Tudor times, so no grants. 

On the plus side, a man might have quite a few coats at the same time. 

The undifferenced arms of his father, 

If he was the only child, he could quarter those with the arms of his mother, 

If he was the head of an institution he could impale his arms with those, 

Today he might have different arms in England and Scotland. 

Regards 

Chas
Whannell - Eaton - Jackson
India - Scotland - Australia

Offline Drayke

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Re: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« Reply #2 on: Friday 04 June 21 18:33 BST (UK) »
The Norman Conquest was from 1066 onwards. There was nothing prior to that we would today recognise as heraldry in England. In fact the first historically recorded and verified case of arms being given to an individual was in 1086.
Considering the arms were used by successive generations up until past the 1600's as well as all being recorded by an official deputy herald at arms in the visitations and general armoury, I would have thought they to be recognised. It is also welsh heraldry of which from what I know the college of arms upheld them despite their age. For instance it explains it here as well as showing the recognised Hughes arms which also shows some of those I mentioned in my first post 6th and 14th quarters with differences of which both are recognised arms from the royal tribes of wales. https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles/the-development-of-welsh-heraldry/

As to your other comments I assume this to mean that even if a new set of arms were granted, a person could use that new one as well as any prior ones he is entitled to?

Additionally you mentioned "If he was the only child, he could quarter those with the arms of his mother, ". Is this correct? The college of arms website under the law of arms doesnt make the distinction between children and states "Providing that she marries a man who bears arms, the children of their marriage may include the arms of her father as a quartering in their own shields."


Offline markheal

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Re: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« Reply #3 on: Friday 04 June 21 20:31 BST (UK) »
DRAYKE
Thank you for recommending these interesting articles which will improve my understanding of this subject.
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles
Mark
ANSTRUTHER,Worldwide
BENNETT,
BRETT, Sligo
CARNEGIE,
CROCKFORD, Hampshire.
ELLIOT,
GAUNTLETT, Worldwide
HEAL, HEALE, HELE, Chew Magna, Somerset
HENRY, Sligo
MABEY, Dorset
O'HANLON
POPE, London docklands,
STANDERWICK, Somerset,
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Drayke

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Re: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 05 June 21 12:17 BST (UK) »
DRAYKE
Thank you for recommending these interesting articles which will improve my understanding of this subject.
https://www.theheraldrysociety.com/articles
Mark
Not a problem at all. I have found them most useful in the past as well, just wish there was an article to answer my questions in the first post :'(.

I also recommend their image library, has many examples of heraldry as well as some of families.

Offline MaecW

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Re: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 05 June 21 14:41 BST (UK) »
Dryke, I'm afraid you have been misled in your understanding of the way early heraldry worked both in England and Wales.
As Kiltpin advised, there could be no grants of Arms in the Anglo-Saxon period as heraldry, as opposed to a personal design or symbol, was unknown. Nor was it in use by the early Normans. It is generally accepted that it arose in the later 12th century partly as a result of the development of fully enclosed helmet armour.
For the first two to three hundred years usage was largely unregulated and, whilst a few "rules" were developed to deal with practical problems, there was no overall authority and individuals adopted any design that appealed to them. Heralds existed but not as Crown officers and their main job was the organization of tournaments or, when needed, armies. If you look at some of the lists of attendees at tournaments (the Rolls of Arms) you will see that many of the participants changed their Arms from time to time, and often between generations.
It was not until the time of Henry V that the Crown started to regulate the use of Heraldry and not until Henry VIII that Heralds were authorised to review usage and bring it within set rules.
Of course, by this time, many families had adopted a particular design and used it to identify themselves, adding or changing some item to indicate junior lines.

I notice that you say your original armiger was in Wales. Here you enter into a completely different scenario. Much of Wales was independent of England until 1282, a mix of several small kingdoms often at war with each other. Heraldry gradually came into use as Welshmen travelled to fight in English and European armies. Family genealogies were maintained by a family's bard and, as heraldry came into use the bards added it to their function. This led to Arms being assigned backwards along the family tree, so that progenitors were credited with bearing arms that did not exist in their time (even if they, themselves, did exist !) . Thus the so-called "Royal Families of Wales", reflecting their claimed descent from specific individuals. This, in turn, led potentially to all the descendants of the progenitor claiming the right to carry his Arms. As Welsh laws of inheritance were quite different to the Norman/English, not being based on primogeniture, this resulted in many Welsh families of the period using very similar Arms.
Once Welsh law was replaced by English law in 1534-42, the visitations of Heralds under the Tudors, whilst largely respecting Welsh tradition, led to the adoption of English practice.

This leads me back to the Arms you say were granted to an ancestor and were held by your PERSON A in 1425 and which you describe as  "Argent, three lions passant in pale gules". I can find no listing for this in Siddons (The Development of Welsh Heraldry) and would appreciate the name so that I can follow this up. This in turn may help to answer your query.

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline MaecW

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Re: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 06 June 21 07:03 BST (UK) »
Drayke (and apologies for mis-spelling your name in my last post).

Looking back on my posting I have realised that I did not fully explain how the Visitations worked in Wales. The first visitation seen on record is thought to be that of William Ballard and covers a collection of arms of the nobility and gentry of South Wales. It appears to been written late in the reign of Edward IV. Others followed sporadically until more serious efforts were made in the mid-to-late 1500s. In these it was common to use assistant Heralds who were well versed in the bardic system of recording genealogy. As a result, their records show lineages from many centuries past, much more so than is the case in England. It is impossible to say exactly how accurate these are and therefore one has to be very careful drawing conclusions from them.

In order to answer your query it would be best to start with a known individual whose Arms can be confirmed by sources other than the visitations, thus giving a firm foundation to work from. Can you give us a name and date, please ?

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline Drayke

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Re: Coat of Arms Inheritance and grants
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 06 June 21 15:44 BST (UK) »
In order to answer your query it would be best to start with a known individual whose Arms can be confirmed by sources other than the visitations, thus giving a firm foundation to work from. Can you give us a name and date, please ?

Sure and will also provide some of the sources, though I admit to making an error in my first post.

The one in the early 11th century was actually Llewelyn Aurdorchog, Lord of Ial (or Llewelyn ap Coel ap Gweirydd b. c1005) whose arms were "azure, a lion rampant guardant or" These arms of Llewelyn Aurdorchog are listed in 'The general armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales' by Burke p613 as well as some of the below mentioned sources also A Display of Herauldry of the particular Coat Armours now is Use in the Six Counties of North-Wales by Reynolds, John p23.

The arms I mentioned in my OP are the direct descendant of the above Trahaearn ap Iorwerth Lord of Garthmael (b. c1170), given him by the Prince of Powys for his bravery in battle, "argent, three lions passant in pale gules". This is mentioned in 'The history of the princes, the lords marcher, and the ancient nobility of Powys Fadog... by Jacob Youde William Lloyd, as well as some of the below mentioned sources. https://archive.org/details/historyofprinces05lloy/page/120/mode/2up

The person I mention born around 1425 was Philip ap leuan (direct decent of the above) who married the heiress of Berthlwyd who's fathers arms were "Ermine, a lion rampt. sable, in a border gules, charged with eight mullets or.". As seen in the above source of The history of the Princes... His arms are also given in some sources like the Archaeologia cambrensis as the same as his descendant Sir Edward Lloyd.

Philip's descendant was David Lloyd ap Jenkin (b. c1525) who was Mayor of Llanidloes and High Sherriff of Montgomeryshire. His arms were "Quarterly 1 & 4, ermine, a lion rampant sable in a border gules charged with eight annulets ar.; 2 & 3, Party per bend sinister ermine and ermines, a lion rampant or." This according to "The sheriffs of Montgomeryshire, their armorial bearings and notices of their families, 1540 to 1639 by William Valentine Lloyd p228" https://archive.org/details/sheriffsmontgom00lloygoog/page/n266/mode/2up as well as numerous other sources. This is similar to the Lloyds of Clochfaen arms in the general armory - Clochfaen being relatives to Berthlwyd family.

He had issue including 2 sons. One being Edward Lloyd (b. c1565) who's son was David Lloyd, Dean of St Asaph (b. 1597) of which the source in the OP shows his arms (though this is the only entry of it I have found and erroneously states his father as David Lloyd). "Arms.: Gu., 3 boars' heads erased in pale arg. Lloyd. Crest.: Out of an heraldic coronet a boar's head erased arg. Motto.: Dare quam accipere." The arms it seems are listed in burkes armory attributed to the Lloyd family from denbigh. https://archive.org/details/b22650611/page/270/mode/2up

The other son was Jenkin Lloyd who's son Sir Edward Lloyd married Ursula dau. of Sir Henry Salisbury. His arms and his descendants which became extinct around 1724 were "1st, argent, three lions passant in pale gules (Trahaiarn ap Iorwerth, lord of Garthmul); 2, ermine, a lion rampant sable in a border gules charged with eight bezants." giving credence to the afore mentioned arms. This is shown in Archaeologia cambrensis Vol.13 p260 about halfway down the page. This book also shows the previous mentioned arms as well. https://archive.org/details/archaeologiacamb1867unse/page/260/mode/2up

I also do understand that visitations cannot be trusted however this particular line does seem to be accurate through the male line based on the varied sources with the relevant corrections made. Additionally the Peniarth Manuscript's and Harleian Manuscript's (4181, 1973) the later of which has pedigrees and histories of the landholding families of Montgomeryshire confirm the lineage.

:EDIT:
Just an edit to this, there is also a desk that belonged to David Lloyd Dean of St Asaph that is shown in a catalogue of the library of John Holmes (1758-1841) which also has arms on it and the desk according to the date is from 1624. Whilst there are no heraldic colours shown, it does show the arms of the aforementioned Lord's of Ial as well as two others "charged with three ducks" and another "charged with three Pheons". The desk description can be found here: https://archive.org/details/adescriptivecat02holmgoog/page/n282/mode/2up