Author Topic: A James Manson Pickle  (Read 5626 times)

Offline Indiana.59

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A James Manson Pickle
« on: Monday 14 June 21 22:07 BST (UK) »
A JAMES MANSON’S PICKLE

JAMES MANSON B: 9 AUG 1866 (BOWER, CAITHNESS)
F: JAMES MANSON (FARMER)
M: MARGARET JOHNSTONE

HELEN MATHERSON MANSON B: 13 DEC 1867 (CANISBAY, CAITHNESS)
F: WILLIAM MANSON (CROFTER)
M: CHRISTINA MCLEOD

MARRIAGE: 6 JULY 1890
JAMES MANSON (FARM SERVANT) (23) FROM OLRIG B: 1868 – 2 YRS OUT
HELEN MATHERSON MANSON (22) FROM MEY B: 1869 – 2 YRS OUT

CENSUS 1891

Name:          James Manson
Age:           24
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1867
Spouse's Name:    Hellen Manson
Where born:       Bower, Caithness
Address:               Stanstill
Occupation:       Farm Servant
Civil parish:       Olrig
County:           Caithness
Address:           Castletown
James Manson       24    Head
Hellen Manson       23    Wife
James Manson       8mo    Son
Charlotte Manson    17    Sister-in-law

CENSUS 1901

Name:          James Manson
Age:                  30
Estimated Birth Year:    abt 1871
Spouse's Name:    Hellen Manson
Where born:       bown, Caithness
Civil parish:       Olrig
County:           Caithness
Address:          Castletown
Occupation:       Postman
James Manson       30    Head
Hellen Manson       32    Wife
James Manson       10    Son
Christina Manson    9    Daur
Maggie Manson       7    Daur
William Manson      5    Son
Lottie Manson       4    Daur (Charlotte)
Annie Manson       7    Daur

FROM THE 1891 CENSUS TO THE 1901 CENSUS JAMES MANSON’S AGE AND OCCUPATION HAS NOW CHANGED, BUT; IS QUITE CLEARLY THE SAME PERSON . . .
 
JAMES’S AND HELEN’S DAUGHTER, MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER B: CHARLOTTE MANSON B: 28 FEB 1897 BIRTH CERTIFICATES STATES HER FATHER JAMES MANSON IS A PLOUGHMAN, BUT, ON CHARLOTTE’S DEATH CERT IN 1924 (AGED 26) HER FATHER NOW AGED (58) IS A POSTMAN, SO AT WHAT POINT DID JAMES MANSON CHANGED FROM BEING A PLOUGHMAN TO A POSTMAN BETWEEN 1891 AND THE 1901 CENSUS, AND DID JAMES MARRY TWICE, AS ON HIS DEATH CERTIFICATE ON 18 SEP 1926, (AGED 60) HE WAS A RETIRED POSTMAN, WIFE HELEN THOMSON, NOT HELEN MATHERSON MANSON HE WAS MARRIED TOO. . .

THEN WE HAVE A DEATH CERTIFICATE FOR A HELEN MANSON, WIDOW OF JAMES MANSON, (POSTMAN) D: 12 JAN 1954, (AGED 86) B: 1868, F: WILLIAM MANSON (CROFTER) M: CHRISTINA MATHERSON, NOT MCLEOD AS STATED ON HER BIRTH CERTICATE . . .

ON ANCESTRY THE VISITORS TO THE MANSONS FAMILY TREE ARE THE MCKAYS AND THOMSONS, WHY IS THIS AS NOTHING IS STATED AS TO A SECOND MARRIAGE, OR CONNECTION . . .

THEN WE HAVE THIS . . .

BIRTH:

HELEN (ELLEN) HENDERSON THOMSON

Name:       Helen Henderson Thomson
Birth Date:    16 Jan 1864
Birth Place:    Wick, Caithness, Scotland
Father:        Henry Flett Thomson
Mother:            Margaret Mac Kay

PARENTS MARRIAGE:
Name:       Henry Thomson
Marriage:            04 Dec 1856
Marriage:            Wick, Caithness, Scotland
Spouse:             Margaret Mckay

POSSIBLY BRINGING THE THOMSONS AND MCKAYS INTO THE PICTURE . . .

CAN ANYONE ENLIGHTEN TO ME THIS, SO I CAN ALSO HAVE THE BREAD AND CHEESE WITH THE PICKLE AND HAVE MYSELF A NICE PLOUGHMAN’S LUNCH . . . ;  )

MANY THANKS IN ADVANCE, DIANNE, CHARLOTTE’S GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER . . .

Offline AMBLY

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #1 on: Friday 18 June 21 21:24 BST (UK) »
Hello Indiana59,

Age changes  or mistakes - are not at all uncommon.
* Women,  we all have some, often adjusted  ;)
* Enumerators made mistakes transferring numbers from the original Household Schedule (HS) to the Enumerator's Book (that which we see). A 35 or 36 could easily be mistaken for a 30.
* People rounded up or down their own age
* People didn't quite know their own age
* A spouse didn't know the correct age of the other half
* The adult children of parents who are filling in the HS didn't know their parents own age
* Neighbours of a family sometimes provided information to enumerator- and guessed some things.

Change of Occupation not so common in the working Class - but yes it does seem James changed occupation , which appears to be between 1897 & 1901. There may have been an event that meant he could not continue the manual labour. Or simply, he had aspirations and/or an opportunity and took it.  Seeing the birth/marriage/death of other children may further enlighten.

Death Certificates:
* The information is being provided by someone other than the deceased. Who informed?   
* What they have informed is to the best of their knowledge and may well be incorrect on some aspects.  Death Certificates are often incorrect for this reason.
* If there was an earlier illegitimacy for example, or a remarriage and step-parents, causing names to change, the adult children or relative informing may not know .
* Or informants simply make errors - grandparents being named as parents for example, was not unheard of - a number of cases in my own wider tree.

So, reconciling is required for:
Helen Matherson Manson - with "Helen Thomson"
and her mother Christina McLeod - with "Christina Matherson"

Cheers,
AMBLY

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #2 on: Friday 18 June 21 23:14 BST (UK) »
Reconcile Christina McLeod - with "Christina Matherson"

Christina McLeod's mother was Helen Matheson, so it does look like a case of the informant incorrectly giving Christina her mother's maiden name (Matheson) , rather than her own (McLeod)  on  Helen's death cert . 

If this is accepted, then it seems very unlikely James Manson's widow was anyone other than Helen Matheson Manson.    Haven't found a "Thomson" connection  to explain away the "Thomson" yet though!

CENSUS 1851 : Canisbay
Head: Charlotte MANSON 57, Working Herring Nets
Dau: Ann MANSON 26, unmarried, Working Herring Nets
Gr-Dau: Sinclair DUNNET 3
All b Caithness

CENSUS 1861: Canisbay
Head: Charlotte CHALMERS 66,  widow
Dau: Ann MANSON 34
Son: William MANSON 31, Fisherman & Day Labourer
Gr-Dau: Sinclairina DUNNET 13
All b Canisbay

MARRIAGE??  Between 1851 & 1871
Wil*m MAN*n &  Chris* (Christina/Christian)  M*cL*d
Can't find

BIRTH: issue of Willam & Christina
Helen Matheson MANSON 1867
Ann MANSON 1870 Canisbay

CENSUS 1871: Canisbay
Head: William MANSON, 42, Farmer of 8 acres, 3 Arable
Wife: Christina M/MANSON 27, Farmer's Wife
Dau: Helen MANSON 3,
Dau: Ann MANSON 1,
Mother: Charlotte CHALMERS 76, Pauper
All b Canisbay

BIRTH: issue of Willam & Christina
Angus McLeod MANSON 1879, Canisbay

CENSUS 1881:  Canisbay
William MANSON 55, Crofter,
Wife: Christina MANSON 38
Dau: Helen MANSON 13
Dau: Annie MANSON  11
Son: William MANSON 9
Dau: Charlotte MANSON 7
Dau: Lizzy MANSON 5
Son: Angus MANSON 2
Mother: Charlotte MANSON 85, Fisherman's W (idow)
All born Canisbay

MARRIAGE 1890:
Canisbay: Helen MANSON, married James MANSON

CENSUS 1891: At Canisbay, Caithness
Head: William MANSON 63, Farmer
Wife: Christina MANSON 50,
Son: William MANSON 19, Farmer's Son
Dau: Annie MANSON 21, Farmer's Dau
Dau: Elizabeth MANSON 14, Scholar,
Son: Angus MANSON 12, Scholas
All b Caithness

1901: At East May, Canisbay, Caithness
Head: William MANSON, 73, Crofter (b abt 1828)
Wife: Christina MANSON 59, (b abt 1842)
Son: Angus MANSON 22, Fisherman (b abt 1879)
All born Canisbay

All indications are that William MANSON would have married Christina McLEOD between 1861 & 1871. Which is in Civil Reg time. But can't find on Scotland's people.

All indication are that Helen was their first child, and if naming pattern applies, would be named after Christina's own mother, which appears to be so:

DEATH CANISBAY 1922:
Christina MANSON  died 1922 aged 81, widow of William MANSON, Crofter
Father: Angus MacLEOD, Crofter
Mother : Ellen MacLEOD, MS MATHESON

(Image is bad photocopy)

And:  here appears to be Christina:
1841 CENSUS: Huna, Canisbay
Angus McLEOD 35, Fisherman
Helen McLEOD 20
Hellen McLEOD 5
William McLEOD 3
Christina MCLEOD 1m

https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline Indiana.59

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 20 June 21 03:28 BST (UK) »
Reconcile Christina McLeod - with "Christina Matherson"


Hi Ambly,

Appreciations for all the hard work you have put in there . . .

On looking at James Manson's certificate again, I noticed something . . .

So this is what I had . . .

JAMES MANSON 9 AUG 1866, BOWER
MARRIAGE:  HELEN MANSON JUNE 6 1890 - CANIS BAY, PLOUGHMAN
DEATH: 18 SEP 1926, RETIRED POSTMAN
HIS FATHER: James Manson B: 3 MAY 1825 BOWER (FARMER)
HIS MOTHER: Margaret Johnston, Birth 22 AUG 1827, Burns, Walls, Orkney, Scotland
Death 28 OCT 1896, Olrig, Caithness, Scotland

Is it just me, but; if you look at the parents of James Manson, who is quite clearly the postman, what is it I can see, mother, Margaret Thomson, or Manson as Helen Thomson that is up as James's wife looks like it spelt the same way, Thomson, or Manson I am confused, and as a quick thrown in does anyone know the cause of death in laymans terms . . .

Charlotte Manson daughter to James Mansn B: 1897, James is up as a Ploughman, on Charlotte's marriage in 1918 he is a postman, on her death in 1924 he is also up as a postman . . .

As you can see Charlotte was not the first child born here, but; fifth in line, so strange his trade should change back and forth . . .

Charlotte's siblings as follows . . .

James Manson 1891–1917
Christina MacLeod Manson 1892–1976
Margaret Elizabeth Manson 1893–1923
William Manson 1895–
Charlotte (Lottie) Manson 1897–1924
Annie Harriet Manson 1898–1982
Alexander Manson 1904–
Angus Macleod Manson 1909–1970

As this quest is about whether James is a ploughman, or postman, maybe he held both jobs at the same time, postman in the morning and poughman in the afternoon, no idea . . .

But; there is a reason to me as to who this Helen Thomson on his death certificate was that takes away whether James was a ploughman, or a postman . . .

On the death of Charlotte in 1924 of TB in Edinburgh, her youngest daughter Christina born 1922 also of Edinburgh, dies just 1 year 8 months later, if Charlotte died in 1924 this left her daughter dying within just 3 and a half months of Charlotte's death, where Christina was reportedly sent from Edinburgh to Wick to be brought up by a family of Thomson's, I have now figured out who these Thomson's are, though left a bit confused by all of that too, this needs, as it does not relate as to why here James Manson is a poughman, or postman to be addressed in another thread, but; the Thomson/s in the mix in regard of James Manson's death certificate has totally thrown me, is there a another part of the story I am missing here . . .

Part of the death certificate supplied, William Florence informant is the husband to Annie Harriet Manson, James Manson's daughter B: 1898 so we do have the correct James Manson B: 1866


Offline AMBLY

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 20 June 21 06:24 BST (UK) »
Hi Indiana59

Paralysis Agitans :  is a term for Parkinson's disease.
On looking at James' actual death Cert,  I don't believe it says he was married to "Helen Thomson" at all - nor do I see any "Thomson" on the document at all.

As you say, there no doubt this is your James Manson's death - the informant name supports it.

IMHO His Surname "Manson" is the same word in the same form (style) as the surname of his wife Helen and his father James and his mother Margaret (MS  Johnstone). A very distinctive "M" in each case (and the same style "M" as in in M.S. and in the surname of  the doctor, McGregor )

There is no top bar to make a "T" (or indeed any middle crossbar to make a "t") and  it's extremely unlikely the clerk would have written "Thomson" as  "thomson" (or "|homson").

  :)
Cheers
AMBLY
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline AMBLY

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 20 June 21 06:54 BST (UK) »
Regards James' occupation from Farm Servant/Ploughman to Postman

I don't see any back and forth in his  occupation in as far as what you have so far written -  which  seems to show he commenced being a postman sometime after Lottie was born and before the 1901 Census.  Unless it waver's around in the birth records of the other children (red) ?

1891: Census: Farm Servant
1891:Son James birth:
1892: Dau Christina MacLeod's birth:
1893: Dau: Margaret Elizabeth's birth
1895: Son: William's birth

1897: Dau Charlotte's birth:  Ploughman
1898: Annie Harriet's birth
1901: Census: Postman
1904: Son Alexander's birth
1909: son Angus's birth

1918: Dau Charlotte's marriage Postman
1924: Dau Charlotte's death Postman
1926: James' death: Postman retired
1954: Wife Helen's death: Postman

It wouldn't be unheard of, though, to do both.   In my Danish side many of the men were described as one dble barrelled occupation:  Farmer /land worker and Seaman.  I also have a men described back and forth  as a "Inn Keeper/ Keeper of a Public house" or as "Shoemaker", or  "Blacksmith" in different but not consecutive  census.

Cheers
AMBLY

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

"Now that we're all here, I'm not sure if we're all there...."

 Entre los individuos, como entre las naciones, el respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz
 Among individuals, as among nations, respect for the rights of others is peace
    ~Benito Juarez (1806-1872)

Offline Skoosh

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 20 June 21 08:48 BST (UK) »
Ploughing was a young mans game & hard graft so no surprise that James Manson(Magnuson) took to the Royal Mail.

Bests,
Skoosh.

Offline Indiana.59

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 20 June 21 09:21 BST (UK) »
Ploughing was a young mans game & hard graft so no surprise that James Manson(Magnuson) took to the Royal Mail.

Bests,
Skoosh.

Well. I'm pretty lucky Skoosh to have a photo of James aged 42, looking as fit as a butchers dog, and looking rather dapper, but, still managed to drop dead at the age of 60, ploughman, or not . . . *o*

Offline Indiana.59

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Re: A JAMES MANSON'S PICKLE
« Reply #8 on: Monday 21 June 21 22:28 BST (UK) »
So . . .

Great great Granpa on your heed what's that
Because to me it looks like one huge cow pap . . . ; )