Author Topic: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?  (Read 4528 times)

guest259648

  • Guest
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #54 on: Wednesday 23 June 21 19:03 BST (UK) »
I meant that there could have been a misinterpretation of the writing on the original enumeration form - that possible a 'J' had been misread as a 'T'.

I wasn't suggesting it was a mistranscription of the census entry - it's very clear that the first letter on there is a 'T'.

Heywood
jen B

Hi :-)

Maiden Stone explained that censuses are compiled by an enumerator who copies details from forms completed by the householder/s.

Regarding the 1851 Irish householders + lodgers in Seaham, I would say that very, very few of them could read & write (just look at a selection of the marriage entries for this community, almost everyone uses an X instead of a signature).

Therefore the likelihood is that someone from Seaham (not Irish) has written their names for them. One local person could have written the names for the whole of South Railway Street.

The 1851 enumerator then looked at this person's writing and decided that what he saw was TURET, in two cases: two Irish women in adjacent properties.

But the name isn't Turet, because we can't find evidence for this.
My guess is that it's a common female Irish Christian name, written down in an individual style by a literate person in Seaham.

it doesn't matter how the 1851 enumerator wrote his own Turet. What matters is how he interpreted what he was reading & copying (which we can't see).

The first letter of the name he saw (the capital letter) seems to have had a bar/long stroke over the top, therefore it could be E, F, I, J, T.
Or (unfortunately) the impression of a top-bar could just be a decorative feature, an initial sweep before the letter proper was created. But there was definitely a long down-stroke.

The final letter also had a long downward stroke, causing the enumerator to think it could be a t.
Other possibilities are b, d, f, h, k, l.

Inside the word, the letters are all small, with no upward or downward strokes... The enumerator chose to see u + r + e .... but they could also be a, c, i, m, n, o, s, u, v, w, x, z.

There are no strokes below the line in Turet, so that discounts g, j, p, y as letters in the word.

It's a short name, of probably 5 or 6 letters. The second letter is most probably a vowel.

You keep returning to 'Julia', but the final 'a' in Julia doesn't sit happily with the shape of the 't' in Turet.

I'm wondering if it's JANET or JENET as you find in Irish names.
Top bar on the first letter, then 3 small letters, long stroke in the final letter: it fits the pattern and is a 'real' name.

There may be other possibilities, I'm working on it now!

D




Online heywood

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 41,078
    • View Profile
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #55 on: Wednesday 23 June 21 19:34 BST (UK) »
Yes, I too thought of Janet/Janet.
I only come back to Julia because there is a mention of her in the right place albeit she is the wrong age.

In your efforts to distinguish between the two Johns who are in Seaham Harbour (registration district Easington) there is:
1856 Death Julia Rice Easington (sorry for mentioning her again)
1856 marriage John Rice and Catherine Wynne
1861 census + both couples in Seaham

Sunderland
1863 Marriage John Rice and Grace Connolly (Fairburn)
1863 Birth Charles Rice mmn Fairbairn  - died 1864
1866 birth Alexander Rice mmn Fairbairn

1868 death Grace Rice

This seems to indicate that John and Grace moved away from Seaham.

Added
1871
Alexander Rice, Orphan in the workhouse in Sunderland
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

guest259648

  • Guest
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #56 on: Wednesday 23 June 21 20:47 BST (UK) »
Yes, I too thought of Janet/Janet.
I only come back to Julia because there is a mention of her in the right place albeit she is the wrong age.

In your efforts to distinguish between the two Johns who are in Seaham Harbour (registration district Easington) there is:
1856 Death Julia Rice Easington (sorry for mentioning her again)
1856 marriage John Rice and Catherine Wynne
1861 census + both couples in Seaham

Sunderland
1863 Marriage John Rice and Grace Connolly (Fairburn)
1863 Birth Charles Rice mmn Fairbairn  - died 1864
1866 birth Alexander Rice mmn Fairbairn

1868 death Grace Rice

This seems to indicate that John and Grace moved away from Seaham.

Added
1871
Alexander Rice, Orphan in the workhouse in Sunderland

Heywood
I don't mind you mentioning Julia! Please carry on.
It's crucial to keep everything in mind until we find the right answer.

The thing is, Julia seems a fairly rare name on the censuses.
But the 1851 enumerator saw two TURETs side by side - and the chance of there being 2 Julias in South Railway Street side by side seems unlikely (though not impossible).

I had a further thought: that the Michael Rice who's with John + 'Turet' in 1851 could be Turet's son, born in Blackburn Lancs but before she met John Rice. (And in that case Michael's birth surname is not Rice, which is why we can't readily find him pre-1851.)

There was/is a steady movement of people between Seaham and Sunderland, particularly in this period, since the Catholic Church hadn't yet been built in Seaham (they built it because of the huge influx of Irish). So a registration of a BMD in Sunderland seems as likely as one in Easington.

It doesn't matter, really, what happened to any John Rice after 1851.
What's important, in finding the Turet, is what happened before 1851... whom did he marry?
D



Online heywood

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 41,078
    • View Profile
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #57 on: Wednesday 23 June 21 21:03 BST (UK) »
Iím not sure I am seeing the situation clearly but I was just trying to say that one John Rice seems to remain in Seaham as a lodging house keeper and the other moves away to Sunderland.
Julia /Judy is found in Irish registers of the time so could be possible but as you say, it doesnít look like them.

I have looked through Blackburn (and Lancashire) records umpteen times to see a Michael with an Irish surname  ;)
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline garstonite

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 11,947
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #58 on: Thursday 24 June 21 05:58 BST (UK) »
someone suggested Turet as a surname being used as a Christian name
https://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?size=10&ignore_each_patronyme=&ignore_each_prenom=&type_periode=between&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&sexe=&nom=turet&ignore_each_patronyme=&prenom=&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=England%2C+United+Kingdom&country__0__=GBR&region__0__=ENG&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=&region__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=&region__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=&region__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=&region__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&exact_month=&exact_day=&exact_year=&go=1

Turet Rice was a woman born in 1811 in Ireland Daudon . During the 1851 UK Census she was 40 years old and lived in Durham. She appears as the wife of she house in the 1851 UK Census.
LAST NAME:   Rice
FIRST NAME:   Turet
MIDDLE NAME:   
BIRTH YEAR:   1811
BIRTH PLACE:   Ireland Daudon
COUNTY:   Durham
AGE:   40
GENDER:   Female
RESIDENCE:   Back South Rail Street
Seaham Harbor
Daudon, Durham
HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:   
John Rice (30, Male)
Turet Rice (40, Female)
Michael Rice (11, Male)
Catherine Mclever (45, Female)
Patrick Callan (46, Male)

ADDED
Just a suggestion - a female name of Jetruite in Clonallan County Down
I wonder if Jetruite was shortened or misheard as Turet ??

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPBG-KF99
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......†† sacht,helgoland† .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..† jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

guest259648

  • Guest
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #59 on: Thursday 24 June 21 07:15 BST (UK) »


Turet Rice was a woman born in 1811 in Ireland Daudon . During the 1851 UK Census she was 40 years old and lived in Durham. She appears as the wife of she house in the 1851 UK Census.

HOUSEHOLD MEMBERS:   
John Rice (30, Male)
Turet Rice (40, Female)
Michael Rice (11, Male)
Catherine Mclever (45, Female)
Patrick Callan (46, Male)

ADDED
Just a suggestion - a female name of Jetruite in Clonallan County Down
I wonder if Jetruite was shortened or misheard as Turet ??

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPBG-KF99

garstonite
Thank you
It's useful to have the census entry written out here.
,
Certainly some parents chose unusual names for their children... I've also seen 'Jetrude'...

However there are two TURETs side by side in the 1851 Seaham census; different families entirely.
So I'm still attracted by the thought that it's a much more common name; an enumerator mis-read what was written: he 'solved' the first name by using Turet, then saw it again, in the next house along, and repeated his error.

Another Rootschatter showed me that a 'Sarah' in Ireland had been mistranscribed as something very similar to Turet.

This morning I'm wondering if our Turet could be a HARRIET(T), which gets written as HARIET. It has all the right ingredients, with the long down-strokes at front and back, and that crucial R in the middle.

D



guest259648

  • Guest
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #60 on: Thursday 24 June 21 07:27 BST (UK) »
Iím not sure I am seeing the situation clearly but I was just trying to say that one John Rice seems to remain in Seaham as a lodging house keeper and the other moves away to Sunderland.
Julia /Judy is found in Irish registers of the time so could be possible but as you say, it doesnít look like them.

I have looked through Blackburn (and Lancashire) records umpteen times to see a Michael with an Irish surname  ;)

Heywood
You're very generous with your time, bless you :-)

I do the same things as you - scan the entries for all the Mc's and O's and Irish-looking things!

However I didn't know that RICE is an Irish surname, it doesn't feel so. But I'm told it usually comes from RHYS, which is Welsh. Some census entries have REIS instead of RICE.

The other Seaham family with this mysterious TURET is called McMahan or McMahon (sometimes wrongly written as Mackman). I wonder if we could follow this family, as an additional aid:  it's Michael McMahon who's the husband in 1851, and they very probably knew the Rice family well, living so close.

I've also just found a Michael Rice, dock labourer, lodging with a McMahon family in Liverpool (head of family is James)... McMahon/Rice....perhaps this Liverpool man is Turet's son Michael who went back west to work in the docks? Seems more likely than him being a coal miner...

D




Offline garstonite

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 11,947
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #61 on: Thursday 24 June 21 07:31 BST (UK) »
Dulciebun - I have just sent you a PM... :)
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......†† sacht,helgoland† .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..† jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline JenB

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,908
    • View Profile
Re: Irish Christian name TURET, does it exist?
« Reply #62 on: Thursday 24 June 21 08:55 BST (UK) »

Turet Rice was a woman born in 1811 in Ireland Daudon . During the 1851 UK Census she was 40 years old and lived in Durham. She appears as the wife of she house in the 1851 UK Census.
LAST NAME:   Rice
FIRST NAME:   Turet
MIDDLE NAME:   
BIRTH YEAR:   1811
BIRTH PLACE:   Ireland Daudon


Just for the sake of accuracy, the census shows that she was born in Ireland. The word 'Daudon' doesn't appear in the birthplace column.

At the time of the 1851 census the family were living in Dawdon Parish, County Durham.

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk