James Murray born ca 1805 61st & 87th Regiments

[josey]

I see Dundee Archives have the admission ledgers for Baldovan

The Dundee Industrial Schools Society was founded in 1847. Initially based in Temple Lane, the school moved to new premises at Ward Road in c.1856. Originally attendance was voluntary but after 1861, children could be sentenced to attend the school instead of going to jail. The boys’ school moved to Baldovan in 1878, and the girls remained at Ward Road until moving up to Balgay in 1896. The following records contain information about pupils, for a full list of records, please contact the Archives.

Girls (Ward Road then Balgay)

Admission registers (includes boys before 1878)   1855-1924   GD/Balg/2/3/1-6
Log books   1910-1980   GD/Balg/2/5/1-4
Punishment books   1891-1966   GD/Balg/2/6/1-3
Boys (Baldovan or Balgowan)

Admission Register (In same volume as girls school)   1855-1878   GD/Balg/2/3/1-4
Admission registers   1873-1980   GD/Balg/3/3/1-9
Log books   1922-1983   GD/Balg/3/4/1-3

I will see if I can acquire a copy of Robert's admission, however their website states "Please note that we will be unable to accept / process postal enquiries until further notice."

[josey]

In the 1881 census 12 yr old Robert is an inmate in an industrial school for boys in Stathmartine, Angus.

I did find a Robert Small still with the Carstairs in 1881:
Registration Number:   273
Registration district:   Auchterhouse
Address:   Lioch
ED:   1 Household schedule number:   34 Line:   19
David Carstairs 48 Head ag lab
Isabella Carstairs 49   Wife
Helen Forest Carstairs 21   Daughter
Jane Carstairs 14   Daughter
Isabella Carstairs 11   Daughter
Miriam Carstairs 8   Daughter
Robert Small   11   Nephew b Dundee scholar
Jane McKenzie 23   Daughter-in-law
H Isabella McKenzie 4   Granddaughter
Helen McKenzie 2   Granddaughter

perhaps he also attended the Industrial School and was recorded twice? Or was about to when the Carstairs emigrated?

[Neale1961]

Yes, that census I found with Robert in the Industrial school cannot be right – the age is 1 year out.
You have found the correct one, he is still with his Aunt and Uncle in 1881
Then he emigrates to USA with the them.

15 Dec 1884 on board “Anchoria” from Glasgow to New York
The Carstairs family (all listed as from Dundee)
If I am reading correctly, Robert Small age 14, is there listed as Robt Carstairs (6th name down).
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSV-31FZ

[Neale1961]

In the same Washington cemetery as the Carstairs family graves is this …
Robert Small b.1869 – died 1885
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/47529688/robert-small

and this, in the same cemetery, is his father John Small 1843-1920
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/47529687/john-small
[If I have the correct John Small-
In 1871 census John Small, age 27, is working as blacksmith in Meigle Perthshire (his home town)
IN 1891 census John Small, age 46, is working as a blacksmith in Meigle Perthshire, living with his sister Helen Small, age 52. He is also there with sister in 1901 census, but No sign of his wife.]


What became of Mary Ann (Murray) Small?
One feels she must have died at the birth of her son Robert, which is why he, at 1 years of age, is living with his aunt.
Like you, I could find nothing.

[Neale1961]

I have found Mary Ann's marriage;
26 Apr 1866 Catholic Chapel Dundee 1st
Mary Ann Murray 18 spinster of 2 Castle Court d/o James Murray soldier deceased & Josephine Reid previously Murray MS Morton to John Small 22 blacksmith bachelor witnesses James Morris & ELISA MURRAY 

Going from the information on that marriage record, this would be her mother's marriage on SP ?
MORTON,  MARIA JOSEPHINE
REID,  JOHN
1862
282/2 182
Dundee Second District

[josey]

Wow great finds, Neale1961 thank you. Poor Robert, but obviously much loved by aunt & uncle to have erected such a stone.

That does look like it is the marriage. So was Josephine known as Jane? Nice to dot the 'i's & cross the 't's but this diverges from the Murray descendant search. Tomorrow I will have a hunt for Eliza.

[Neale1961]

I have found her!
Josey – plenty for you to follow up on, because the census returns are interesting.

Eliza’s Marriage on SP
MURRAY   ELISE   
MCVEAN   JOHN        1868      282/3 129      St Clement (Dundee)

A son named Dugald Murray MacVean was born 8 Oct 1870 in Dundee to John McVean and Eliza Murray

1871 census 10 Murraygate, Dundee
•   Eliza McVEAN – Head – 25 – born Perth – Soldiers wife
•   Maria J REID – 43 – born Ireland - mother – soldiers widow
•   Mary Ann SMALL – 23 – born Aberdeen – sister – factory spinner
•   John Leckie SMALL – 3 – born Dundee - nephew
•   Dougal M McVEAN – 8 months – born Dundee - son


1881 census – Fort George, fortified garrison, on the Moray Firth.
•   John MACVEAN – Head – 39 – sergeant, blacksmith journeyman
•   Eliza MACVEAN – wife – 33  – domestic duties
•   Dugald MACVEAN – son – 10 – born Dundee
•   Marion READ – mother – 56 – domestic duties
Here is the free 1881 census on SP
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/view-image/nrs_census_lds/207759?return_row=0

Death for Eliza on SP
MACVEAN   ELIZABETH   46   Mother: MORTON   1889   301/ 40   Liff, Benvie and Invergowrie
MURRAY   ELIZABETH   46   Mother: MORTON    1889   301/ 40   Liff, Benvie and Invergowrie


The son Dugald emigrated to USA in about 1889, and married there in 1900 to Lucie Laing.
Dugald 1910 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MPFR-TDY
His family grave here:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/150839899/dugald-murray-macvean

[josey]

Thank you so much Neale1961, you've made my day [Yorkshire Day here in Holmfirth]; that's all amazing.

I will definitely follow Dugald up and get this all into my family history software now. Who knows it may lead to William 1831 & James 1833, who are the y-chromosome line from James snr's and thus his brother, my ancestor Philip.

Thank you again.

ADDED: The 1871 address is amusing!! I have found online the postal address of a great granddaughter of Dugald Murray MacVean 1870 and am writing to her.

ADDED 2: Am looking into whether Mary Ann Murray or Small remarried sometime after 1871? I cannot find a death under that name.

[Neale1961]

Am looking into whether Mary Ann Murray or Small remarried sometime after 1871? I cannot find a death under that name.

I doubt she would remarry, as she was already married. She and husband were obviously no longer together, but she was not a widow.
It might be useful to get the death certificate of her boy who died in 1876, to see if Mary Ann is still around at that point.
Also on Eliza’s death certificate 1889, it might be useful to know who the informant was.