Author Topic: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?  (Read 1653 times)

Offline heywood

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 18 July 21 14:00 BST (UK) »
I was answering re modern times as the question was in the context of the
 P M ’s marriage.
From very recent experience, I have had it confirmed from a diocesan representative that a C o E baptism was acceptable. However, a conditional baptism was administered (this was for a child) so that the (local)  church records would be noted for future reference e.g. if the person wanted to marry in a Catholic Church in the future.
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Offline arthurk

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 18 July 21 14:24 BST (UK) »
I was answering re modern times as the question was in the context of the P M ’s marriage.

I wasn't meaning to be critical, as I was mostly writing about the present too. Then I realised the original question had been about things over 100 years ago, so I thought I'd better add a caveat that things might have been different then.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

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Offline heywood

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 18 July 21 14:41 BST (UK) »
Oh no - I realised that. I just meant to clarify the modern day context too.  :)
(With an example).
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Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 18 July 21 14:52 BST (UK) »
Just a thought - have you actually purchased any of the birth certificates to see what date appears there, in order to verify or refute the baptism entries?

I only have the certificate for Henry's birth.

William's DOB - you've given me the date from the parish register. Thankyou  :)

Florence's DOB is still in doubt as her death certificate GRO entry gives her DOB as 26 June 1895 but the 1939 register gives it as 22 June 1895.

Arthur's GRO death entry gives his DOB as 21 Nov 1903 but the 1939 register gives it as 21 Nov 1902. The GRO register for his birth is DEC 1903.

Edward died young and I only discovered he existed yesterday, along with a brother and a sister who also died very young.

What I find really interesting is that my grandfather Henry (who died before I was born) was very anti-Catholicism, apparently describing it as "cruel". It surprised me that he would marry a catholic,
my grandmother Mary Harrington, in a catholic ceremony. Now I know he was actually a catholic himself the marriage makes more sense.

I can't find a baptismal record for John Sutcliffe so don't know if was C of E. I haven't been able to find a catholic baptism for him on Findmypast but his Sutcliffe ancestors were C of E.

I'm now beginning to wonder if Mary Ann Lane was the catholic. She was born in the workhouse in 1871 but there are no existing records at the LMA for the Union Workhouse, St John Horsleydown for the year she was born. She was illegitimate. I've found no sign of her on the 1881 census,

I wonder if my grandfather's opinion is about something that happened to his mother.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire


Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 18 July 21 15:04 BST (UK) »
I've checked the 1908 workhouse entry again and it says her last place of residence is
13 Parkers Buildings

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/60391/images/31537_214471-00085?pId=8040369

So at least the addresses on the workhouse record and one of the catholic baptism records tie up.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 18 July 21 15:07 BST (UK) »
Is there a religion shown on workhouse records or were the boys sent to a Catholic home?


The last workhouse record I can find is in Dec 1914. No religion listed but the
William, Arthur and George Sutcliffe are all from either "Shirley Schools" or "Peckham Homes"

http://www.workhouses.org.uk/StOlave/#Peckham
At the bottom of the page are the Peckham Homes and Shirley school for St Olave
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 18 July 21 15:47 BST (UK) »

One of my English families had their eldest 3 children baptised C of E. when babies and a triple R.C. baptism when they were ages 1, 3 & 5.
Another had a second R.C. baptism when she was an adult. Her DOB in baptism register is wrong by a year.

The woman (Charlotte) who had 2 Catholic baptisms wasn't from the same family as the one who had the triple baptisms. She was baptised in a Catholic church when she was 2 days old. When she was 33 she was baptised "Sub conditione" in another Catholic church in the same town. Her son, aged 8 was baptised on the same day. Her daughter, aged around 3 or 4, was baptised 6 months later. Both children were illegitimate. Their full names at their birth registrations include a surname as a middle name which I presume was their father's surname. Going only by transcriptions on LAN-OPC, birth date info of Charlotte and daughter are different in baptism register from their birth registrations.
I'm puzzled as to why Charlotte had a second baptism. She and her siblings were baptised in Catholic churches in Blackburn and 2 of their weddings were at the church where she had her 2nd baptism.  Their mother belonged to a family which had been Catholic since the Reformation. A cousin of Charlotte was a well-known priest.
Charlotte wasn't a direct ancestor. Prompted by this topic I'm looking again at her life.
Charlotte's son was born in Blackpool. He was baptised at a C. of E. church there. Father's name crossed out. The daughter's birth was registered in Blackburn, Charlotte's birthplace. Charlotte & children remained in Blackburn and her mother was living with them on the next census. From that I surmise that Charlotte left Blackburn for Blackpool when she was a young woman, had 2 children by the same man, the relationship ended, she returned to her parents in Blackburn when she was expecting her 2nd child and also returned to the Catholic church.
Charlotte seems to have subtracted a year from her age. A request to the priest at the Blackburn church where she was baptised as a baby to check the baptism register for the correct year should have found her baptism. Why was it assumed that Charlotte wasn't already baptised? Did she not ask her mother? Was it the priest's suggestion she be baptised along with her son? Reasons for the son's baptism may have been so that he could attend a Catholic school or receive other sacraments, or family influence.
Following Charlotte's daughter through her childhood and young adult life. She's on a Confirmation Register of a  Catholic church around age 13. She was a 15 year-old  pupil at the local Notre Dame Convent on a census. She was an elementary school teacher on next census. Married a man with  very Catholic Irish names a few years later.
Cowban

Offline BumbleB

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 18 July 21 15:52 BST (UK) »
I wouldn't be surprised over the 1939 entry - from other threads there were a lot of "year discrepancies".

The same applies to Florence, plus someone else gave her date of birth on the death registration, and the Workhouse admission shows 27 June 1894, so a mistake was made there as well (Birth registration is 1895).

Personally, I wouldn't be too upset about the differences.  People weren't so pedantic in those days, plus if you were unable to read/write then you wouldn't know that a mistake had been made.



Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
If you don't ask the question, you won't get an answer.
He/she who never made a mistake, never made anything.
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 18 July 21 17:31 BST (UK) »
When Boris got married in a Catholic church earlier this year (despite having been divorced twice), we were told that his first two marriages weren't recognised by the Catholic Church because neither had taken place in a Catholic church, so to them he had never been married before.


The bridegroom was baptised Catholic, his mother's religion. The papal decree on marriage "Ne temere" published 1908 required a Catholic to marry in the presence of a Catholic priest. Therefore neither of the 2 previous marriages were recognised by the Catholic church. (He was confirmed at Eton in an Anglican ceremony.)
The bride is Catholic. Her son was baptised at the Catholic cathedral last year. This is her first marriage.
Btw this is the first baptised Catholic to be PM of the UK. Not a lot of people knew that until his wedding. Only took 190 years from Catholics being allowed to be M.P.s for one to rise to the highest office! Constitutionally difficult until reforms by Gordon Brown. Blair didn't join the Catholic Church until he ceased to be P.M.
Another btw. Mr J. became the incumbent of 10 Downing Street on 24th of July, feast day of St. Boris of Russia. I kid you not.  ;D  Votes in his first mayoral election were being counted on 2nd May 2008, feast day of St. Boris of Bulgaria. This puts a new slant on the expression "friends in high places".  ;D 

Added.
https://religionmediacentre.org.uk/news/boris-johnson-and-the-roman-catholic-church-resume/ 
Cowban