Author Topic: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?  (Read 1072 times)

Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 17 July 21 16:04 BST (UK) »
I can only find one record for Mary Ann Sutcliffe in the workhouse at the moment though I know there are others.

The one I've found in Feb 1908 where she is recorded as "Destitute" at  St Olave's workhouse and some of her children are on there too. Florence's DOB is different again! 27th June 94.

Interestingly though, her usual place of residence is 13 Parkin's (or Perkin's?) Buildings. two of the addresses on the Catholic records look like "Parkers Buildings"
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline PaulineJ

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 17 July 21 18:33 BST (UK) »
That says Parkers Buildings, compare the first "r" to the second "r" it's formed in the same way
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Offline heywood

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 17 July 21 19:12 BST (UK) »
Also I think it would be ‘without ceremony/ies) ‘
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Offline BumbleB

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 17 July 21 20:56 BST (UK) »
"sub conditione" - under the condition  :-\
Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
If you don't ask the question, you won't get an answer.
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Offline arthurk

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 18 July 21 11:16 BST (UK) »
"sub conditione" - under the condition  :-\

Literally, yes. But it's the standard term where an RC baptism is conditional - that is, there's doubt as to whether a previous baptism was performed correctly, or even at all, so the words used include something to the effect of "If you haven't already been baptised, I baptise you..."

It's probably most often seen where someone converts to the RC church in later life.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

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Offline PrawnCocktail

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 18 July 21 11:25 BST (UK) »
When Boris got married in a Catholic church earlier this year (despite having been divorced twice), we were told that his first two marriages weren't recognised by the Catholic Church because neither had taken place in a Catholic church, so to them he had never been married before.

Does this also apply to baptism?
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Offline BumbleB

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 18 July 21 11:28 BST (UK) »
Just a thought - have you actually purchased any of the birth certificates to see what date appears there, in order to verify or refute the baptism entries?
Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
If you don't ask the question, you won't get an answer.
He/she who never made a mistake, never made anything.
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

Offline heywood

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 18 July 21 13:36 BST (UK) »
When Boris got married in a Catholic church earlier this year (despite having been divorced twice), we were told that his first two marriages weren't recognised by the Catholic Church because neither had taken place in a Catholic church, so to them he had never been married before.

Does this also apply to baptism?

No it doesn’t apply. The Catholic Church recognises baptisms in other denominations and, I think, if baptism was by a person in an emergency.
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Offline arthurk

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 18 July 21 13:54 BST (UK) »
From what I've just found, an emergency baptism can be performed by anyone at all. There's a guide to Catholic teaching on baptism at the following link - I don't know who wrote it or how authoritative it is, but it's more or less what I would have said:

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/beliefs/a-guide-to-catholic-baptism/

An Encyclopedia Britannica article also includes this: "The Roman Catholic Church baptizes conditionally in cases of serious doubt of the fact of baptism or the use of the proper rite."
(https://www.britannica.com/topic/Roman-Catholicism/Baptism)

The Britannica article refers to the acceptance of baptism by other denominations as something that may reflect changes of attitude in or since the 1960s. The same might not necessarily have applied in the early 20th century; it could be that even if someone turned up with absolute proof of a baptism which would now be acceptable, at that time the standard practice would have been to treat it as potentially invalid and do a conditional baptism.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk