Author Topic: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?  (Read 1652 times)

Offline Jill Eaton

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The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« on: Saturday 17 July 21 13:24 BST (UK) »
John Sutcliffe married Mary Ann Lane in 1890. St Saviour Southwark. According to FreeBMD no other John Sutcliffe married a Mary Ann Lane between 1837 and 1890.
It was a C of E service at St Mary Magdalene, Southwark.

As far as I know John was C of E and I can't find any records other than a birth certificate for Mary Ann Lane between 1871 and her marriage in 1890

They had a number of children. These are the ones that are causing me a headache:

Florence
Henry
William
Arthur
Edward.

All these children had C of E baptisms

Then today I find that some additional Southwark baptisms were added to FindmyPast catholic records and these children appear to be baptised again in a Catholic ceremony.

On both sets of records the parents are John Sutcliffe and Mary Ann. On the C of E records it simply says Mary Ann Sutcliffe. On the catholic records it states John Sutcliffe and Mary Ann Lane. On a couple of the Catholic records it also says "Sub conditione et (sin? caeremoniuus?" It's very difficult to read) which I'm lead to believe means there may have been a previous baptism?

All baptisms, both C of E and catholic, are in the Walworth/Bermondsey/Southwark area

It's the DOB's that are the sticking point

Florence has the DOB of 21st June 1895 but the 22nd on the catholic. Close enough not to really be a worry.

Henry's is a big discrepancy - May 7th 1899 on C of E but 21st April 1900 on the catholic

William DOB 21st May 1901 on C of E but 21st May 1902 on the catholic

Arthur DOB 21st Nov 1903 on C of E and the same on catholic

Edward DOB July 1906 on C of E and no DOB on the Catholic just a date of baptism Oct 7 1907. Edward death registration was Dec 1907.

The C of E burials were all close of their dates of births but the Catholics re-baptisms were between 1907 and 1910.

Some of the children then appear to have undergone Confirmations:
Florence in May 1907
Henry in June 1909
William in June 1911

Does anyone know why they would have had both a C of E and then a Catholic baptism? In several cases, several years later? And why would some of the birthdates have been altered? It is something to do with the required age for Confirmation?

I'm concerned that these aren't even the same people but the shared names and location make it seem unlikely this is a coincidence.

Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline BumbleB

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 17 July 21 14:23 BST (UK) »
Have you checked the GRO website for mother's maiden name of Lane to ascertain which date of birth might be correct?

Henry - June quarter 1899 - St Saviour RD - mmn = Lane.  There is no 1900 registration at all for Henry Sutcliffe.

Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
If you don't ask the question, you won't get an answer.
He/she who never made a mistake, never made anything.
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

Online KGarrad

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 17 July 21 14:55 BST (UK) »
Are these records showing baptism dates, rather than dates of birth?
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 17 July 21 15:06 BST (UK) »
Have you checked the GRO website for mother's maiden name of Lane to ascertain which date of birth might be correct?

Henry - June quarter 1899 - St Saviour RD - mmn = Lane.  There is no 1900 registration at all for Henry Sutcliffe.

BumbleB  :)
Yes. I've searched the GRO with the MMN of Lane
Henry was my grandfather and his birth certificate states 7th May 1899

The others are:
Florence 1895 SEP QUARTER St Saviour
William 1901 SEP QUARTER St Saviour - would expect this to be JUNE QUARTER if he had been born in May
Arthur DEC QUARTER 1903 Camberwell
Edward  SEP QUARTER 1906 Bermondsey - his MMN is transcribed as JANE rather than LANE but I can't find a marriage for a John Sutcliffe and a woman with the surname JANE so think it's probably been mistranscribed.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire


Offline BumbleB

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 17 July 21 15:09 BST (UK) »
William Frank/Francis - birth registered September quarter 1901 - Southwark.  Date of birth in parish register shown as 21 May 1901.

Perhaps time was "not of the essence" to the parents  :-\

Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
If you don't ask the question, you won't get an answer.
He/she who never made a mistake, never made anything.
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 17 July 21 15:10 BST (UK) »
Are these records showing baptism dates, rather than dates of birth?

Both sets, apart from Edwards which doesn't have DOB on the Catholic record, show both DOB and baptism dates. For example, Florence's DOB is recorded as either 21st or 22 June 1895. Her C of E baptism was in July 1895. Her later Catholic baptism was 20th April 1907, assuming they are the same person.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 17 July 21 15:14 BST (UK) »
William Frank/Francis - birth registered September quarter 1901 - Southwark.  Date of birth in parish register shown as 21 May 1901.

Perhaps time was "not of the essence" to the parents  :-\

I suspect it had more to do with when money was spare. John was in and out of the work house infirmary between 1911 and when he died in 1913. I don't know how long he had been ill before that. Mary Ann had to go into the workhouse after his death and some of the boys were sent to boy's homes.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice/Surplus - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Online heywood

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 17 July 21 15:30 BST (UK) »
Is there a religion shown on workhouse records or were the boys sent to a Catholic home?
It may be that the marriage was a mixed religion marriage and they wanted the children to be baptised in both traditions.

Baptism can only be received once. If a child (or adult generally) is received into the Catholic Church and there is doubt about a previous ceremony, then a conditional baptism occurs. It is not the same form.
I wonder if the Latin word is ‘sine’ - ‘without’ which might indicate without ceremony. :-\

If the children were presented as ‘new baptisms’ , it might have been easier to fib about the birth date as early baptism was the norm/recommended.
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: The Sutcliffes - multiple baptisms and wrong DOB's. What's going on?
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 17 July 21 15:48 BST (UK) »

 On a couple of the Catholic records it also says "Sub conditione et (sin? caeremoniuus?" It's very difficult to read) which I'm lead to believe means there may have been a previous baptism?

Yes.
One of my English families had their eldest 3 children baptised C of E. when babies and a triple R.C. baptism when they were ages 1, 3 & 5.
Another had a second R.C. baptism when she was an adult. Her DOB in baptism register is wrong by a year.
I see heywood has posted what I was going to say.
Perhaps parent(s) or whoever took children for baptism at the Catholic church mis-remembered their dates of birth.
Cowban