Joseph DOUGAN, born March 1886, Belfast

[David Hutchinson]

who did he marry and what were his childrens names - maybe we can find a familytree for one of them ?

Yes, he married Elizabeth Ann Bruce on Gibraltar on 7 June 1913.  Children were:

Frederick Joseph Dougan, born 11 Sept 1913 on Gibraltar, died 10 Sept 1979 in Reading UK (was visiting there from Ireland).

Eileen Elizabeth Rose Dougan, born 10 May 1915 on Gibraltar and died 28 Sept 1915 on Gibraltar at only 4 months of age.  She is buried on Gibraltar.

Edward William Dougan (my wife's father), born 26 Oct 1916 on Gibraltar.  Died 5 July 2012 here in Australia.

I am subscribed to Ancestry.com and have searched other family trees but none have proved fruitful.  Most other family trees for this family have been copied over from others that had limited or unsupported information.  Mine is the most detailed from all the ones I have seen so far. 

If you are able to locate other family trees in existence, that would be great.

Thanks,

David

[David Hutchinson]

Hi,  I was wondering whether anybody has any knowledge re the death/burial of a Joseph Dougan, born March 1886 in Belfast.

I know that he was a career soldier, enlisting in the British Army in 1908 in Belfast and separating in 1929.  He served for many years at the Garrison on Gibraltar, and also in India.  He also served in France as a gunner during WW1.

Unfortunately, I cannot locate any information on him after he left the army in 1929 and we cannot identify any information regarding his death or burial site.

I know it is a long shot but just thought I would throw it out there in case somebody has come across him during family history searches etc.

Thanks.

unless this record is wrong - 10 years out with his age and his birth - it looks like there are TWO Joseph Dougan who served in Gibralta ??

any advice welcome - I am a little stumped with this - if one said aged 15 - born 1886  OR  aged 25 born 1896 - I would accept a Mistranscribed record - but stating 15 AND b 1896 - it looks to be transcribed properly .
I wonder if your Joseph Dougan b 1886 did serve in Gibralta

..............................................
Event Type:   
Census
Name:   
Joseph Dougan
Age:   
15
Event Date:   
1911
Event Place:   
Europe
Event Place (Original):   
, Europa Gibraltar, Overseas Military,
Sub-District Number:   
21
Enumeration District:   
20
District Number:   
641
Birth Year (Estimated):   
1896
Birthplace:   
Belfast, County Antrim
Marital Status:   
Single
Occupation:   
NIL
Document Type:   
35
................is any one else stumped by this record

I have this census report.  It does relate to the correct person and the age in the record has incorrectly been recorded as '15' instead of '25'.

Thanks.

[David Hutchinson]

As I say, I have put together quite a good timeline on him now from birth until when he left the army in 1929.  I also just found a record in the Belfast Street Directory which showed him at the family home (Donegall Gardens, Belfast) in 1932.  Whatever happened to him (either died or ran out on the family) seems to have occurred between 1932 and 1937.

Remember that city directory are compiled, usually, the previous year so perhaps from 1931 onwards. However, sometimes old information was carried forward from previous issue so even 1931 is merely a guess.

Thanks for this info.

Is there any way of accessing the same information (ie residents of particular addresses) that have not been put online?  For example, I see that the Belfast Street Directory site includes 1932, 1939 and 1943 online but I would love to have the same information for various other years inbetween.

Is this information available anywhere?

Thanks.

[David Hutchinson]

How was his wife described on her death certificate?  Was she a wife or a widow?

She was definitely a widow at the time of her death in 1967 or 1968 as she lived with my wife's family for the last 30 years of her life.

We actually have possession of an original document she completed in 1937 when she was applying to get a copy of her birth record.  In the document, she states she wanted the birth record so she could apply for the widow's pension.  This obviously suggests that he died in 1937 or earlier.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate any record of his death/burial in 1937 or prior.  Speculation is mounting that he may not have died but way have abandoned the family, and his wife sought the pension as she had no other means of support.  It is not known whether she ever got the pension.

I did actually find a death record for a Joseph Dougan who died in Royal Victoria Hospital on 12 January 1941.  There are some aspects of this person that matches 'our' Joseph Dougan but there are others that raise doubts.  Anyway, I have also been unable to locate this person's burial records.  I have attached a copy of this particular death record in case anybody has any ideas on how to locate his burial record.  Such a burial record would assist to confirm or eliminate him as 'our' Joseph Dougan.

Many thanks.

[aghadowey]

Is this your Joseph?
Northern Whig, 6 Jan.1917:  … THE MILITARY MEDAL, Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, has been awarded the Military Medal and parchment certificate. The wording on the latter is follows:—“Private Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, being storeman to the …

The death certificate is very helpful and opens up a few possibilities. Checking the home address on that death certificate using available directories from Lennon Wyle site-
Ava Dr.- (1932- Ava Dr. not listed)
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1939_2.htm 42. Dougan, Joseph, storeman
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1943_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1947_2.htm  42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1951_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1960_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.

I was able to get snippets from newspapers which show Mrs. M. Dougan to be Minnie and a daughter Dorothy mentioned-
Belfast Telegraph, 13 Jan.1941: DOUGAN—January 12, 1941 at Royal Victoria Hospital, Joseph,  dearly-loved husband of Minnie DOUGAN, 42 Ava Drive. Interment notice later.
(acknowledgment published 20 Jan.)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1942:  DOUGAN—In loving memory of my beloved husband, Joseph DOUGAN, died 12th January, 1941. Lovingly remembered by his sorrowing Wife and Daughter. Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ava Drive.
(also 12 Jan.1943)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1945: … memory of my dear husband, Joseph Dougan, died January 12, 1941. Ever remembered by his loving Wife and Daughter, Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ave Drive. Time cannot dim the face we loved …—ln loving memory of my dear husband and our dear father.

Couldn't see Joseph, Minnie/Mary, etc., or Dorothy in PRONI's Will Extracts.

I checked GRONI for marriage without finding any in Belfast 1921-1941. Also deaths for female Dougans (several possibilities below but nothing conclusive & she could have died after 1969 or outside N.I.)-
-Mary Dougan (age 82) died 15 Feb.1963 Belfast district
-Wilhelmina Dougan (age 58) died 13 Jan.1965 Belfast dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 67) died 1 Mar.1967 Magherafelt dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 85) died 6 Nov.1969 Belfast dist.

[aghadowey]

You could try asking for look up of 42 Ava Street from 1970 directory here- it's possible either Minnie or daughter Dorothy still there.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=711198.0

Or 1954 directory here-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=742886.0

[David Hutchinson]

I was able to get snippets from newspapers which show Mrs. M. Dougan to be Minnie and a daughter Dorothy mentioned-
Belfast Telegraph, 13 Jan.1941: DOUGAN—January 12, 1941 at Royal Victoria Hospital, Joseph,  dearly-loved husband of Minnie DOUGAN, 42 Ava Drive. Interment notice later.
(acknowledgment published 20 Jan.)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1942:  DOUGAN—In loving memory of my beloved husband, Joseph DOUGAN, died 12th January, 1941. Lovingly remembered by his sorrowing Wife and Daughter. Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ava Drive.
(also 12 Jan.1943)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1945: … memory of my dear husband, Joseph Dougan, died January 12, 1941. Ever remembered by his loving Wife and Daughter, Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ave Drive. Time cannot dim the face we loved …—ln loving memory of my dear husband and our dear father.

Couldn't see Joseph, Minnie/Mary, etc., or Dorothy in PRONI's Will Extracts.

I checked GRONI for marriage without finding any in Belfast 1921-1941. Also deaths for female Dougans (several possibilities below but nothing conclusive & she could have died after 1969 or outside N.I.)-
-Mary Dougan (age 82) died 15 Feb.1963 Belfast district
-Wilhelmina Dougan (age 58) died 13 Jan.1965 Belfast dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 67) died 1 Mar.1967 Magherafelt dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 85) died 6 Nov.1969 Belfast dist.
[/quote]


Many thanks for all the work you have done for me.

The Joseph Dougan you have listed above from the Irish Fusiliers is NOT my Joseph Dougan.

I did have the information from the Belfast Street Directory but I was not able to identify the Mrs M Dougan.

In particular though, your newspaper information has been invaluable and positively identifies the wife and daughter of the 42 Ava Drive Joseph Dougan.  It does not rule out the possibility that 'my' Joseph Dougan remarried (to Minnie) after abandoning his first family but I may be able to further this line of enquiry by identifying the age of the daughter.  Going by this Joseph Dougan's age though, it is unlikely (although not impossible of course) that Dorothy would only be a few years old, which would be the case if he left his first family about 1937, as suspected.  I shall do some more homework on this aspect.

I like the look of the Minnie Dougan who died in 1969 as the name and place are consistent and her age puts her birth in a similar period to thast of her husband who was 56 years old in 1941.

Ruling out the Ava Drive Joseph Dougan will be good progress in one way, but disappointing in another as it puts me back to square one 😀.  What happened to my Joseph Dougan???  The mystery continues 😀😀😀.

May I ask how you access all the newspaper records?  Is there a subscription site available to do this?

Thank you once again for your assistance.  You really have been a greatr help.

Regards,

David

[David Hutchinson]

You could try asking for look up of 42 Ava Street from 1970 directory here- it's possible either Minnie or daughter Dorothy still there.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=711198.0

Or 1954 directory here-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=742886.0

Done .... and thanks again.

The 1970 one will be interesting as it may add support to the Minnie who died in 1969 being the correct person.

David

[David Hutchinson]

Is this your Joseph?
Northern Whig, 6 Jan.1917:  … THE MILITARY MEDAL, Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, has been awarded the Military Medal and parchment certificate. The wording on the latter is follows:—“Private Joseph Dougan, Royal Irish Fusiliers, being storeman to the …

The death certificate is very helpful and opens up a few possibilities. Checking the home address on that death certificate using available directories from Lennon Wyle site-
Ava Dr.- (1932- Ava Dr. not listed)
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1939_2.htm 42. Dougan, Joseph, storeman
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1943_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1947_2.htm  42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1951_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.
https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/acomplete1960_2.htm 42. Dougan, Mrs. M.

I was able to get snippets from newspapers which show Mrs. M. Dougan to be Minnie and a daughter Dorothy mentioned-
Belfast Telegraph, 13 Jan.1941: DOUGAN—January 12, 1941 at Royal Victoria Hospital, Joseph,  dearly-loved husband of Minnie DOUGAN, 42 Ava Drive. Interment notice later.
(acknowledgment published 20 Jan.)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1942:  DOUGAN—In loving memory of my beloved husband, Joseph DOUGAN, died 12th January, 1941. Lovingly remembered by his sorrowing Wife and Daughter. Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ava Drive.
(also 12 Jan.1943)
Belfast Telegraph, 12 Jan.1945: … memory of my dear husband, Joseph Dougan, died January 12, 1941. Ever remembered by his loving Wife and Daughter, Minnie and Dorothy Dougan, 42 Ave Drive. Time cannot dim the face we loved …—ln loving memory of my dear husband and our dear father.

Couldn't see Joseph, Minnie/Mary, etc., or Dorothy in PRONI's Will Extracts.

I checked GRONI for marriage without finding any in Belfast 1921-1941. Also deaths for female Dougans (several possibilities below but nothing conclusive & she could have died after 1969 or outside N.I.)-
-Mary Dougan (age 82) died 15 Feb.1963 Belfast district
-Wilhelmina Dougan (age 58) died 13 Jan.1965 Belfast dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 67) died 1 Mar.1967 Magherafelt dist.
-Minnie Dougan (age 85) died 6 Nov.1969 Belfast dist.

Many thanks aghadowey for all the work you have done for me.

The Joseph Dougan you have listed above from the Irish Fusiliers is NOT my Joseph Dougan.

I did have the information from the Belfast Street Directory but I was not able to identify the Mrs M Dougan.

In particular though, your newspaper information has been invaluable and positively identifies the wife and daughter of the 42 Ava Drive Joseph Dougan.  It does not rule out the possibility that 'my' Joseph Dougan remarried (to Minnie) after abandoning his first family but I may be able to further this line of enquiry by identifying the age of the daughter.  Going by this Joseph Dougan's age though, it is unlikely (although not impossible of course) that Dorothy would only be a few years old, which would be the case if he left his first family about 1937, as suspected.  I shall do some more homework on this aspect.

I like the look of the Minnie Dougan who died in 1969 as the name and place are consistent and her age puts her birth in a similar period to thast of her husband who was 56 years old in 1941.

Ruling out the Ava Drive Joseph Dougan will be good progress in one way, but disappointing in another as it puts me back to square one 😀.  What happened to my Joseph Dougan???  The mystery continues 😀😀😀.

May I ask how you access all the newspaper records?  Is there a subscription site available to do this?

Thank you once again for your assistance.  You really have been a greatr help.

Regards,

David