Author Topic: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders  (Read 2304 times)

Offline Gladclark

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 01 August 21 00:38 BST (UK) »
 My nans birth certificate states that her mother was Mary Mullan . She was born in St vincent street at the house owned by nurse mullan. She worked as a domestic servant at 46 West bridgend dumbarton.
I have found o  a 1911 census that a bridget saunders of 63 columb wells was actually born in dumbarton...but just to complicate matters other census records state she was born in Ireland.
I have found a Mary Mullan born in dumbarton and died in 1923.she marries in 1922 then dies shortly after childbirth...is it a coincidence that this is when my nan was put in the orphanage. Her widower then marries her sister Catherine....there is a record of an adoption sealed until 2027....but they then leave for America but passenger records show no child with them? So is all this a coincidence i don't know?

Then looking at Bridgets brothers there is a John who marries in 1914 but then no records of children from their marriage....I also have found a John saunders living in dumbarton in 1915-1940 so is this the same man?? Also coincidentally John saunders moves house 3 times but on each census he is with a Thomas Mullan....the Mary I am looking at has an uncle Thomas is this him? Is this how she meets John???...after 1921 John and Thomas no longer share any addresses .....and in 1922 Mary marries before passing in 1923. Of course I can't prove I have the right Mary mullen the right John Saunders or Thomas Mullan!!! I have ordered a DNA test so really hoping that sheds some light. There are so many mullans and saunders its a mine field!! Thanks so much for all your help x

Offline Gladclark

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 01 August 21 00:56 BST (UK) »
My nan said that bridget stopped her from Going to a couple who wanted to take her to America but as you say why would did she have this authority? Unless John was the father and he stopped it?? The only thing we have from the orphanage id that Mrs Bridget ryans collects her niece in a clean and healthy state in 1931.....this is also the year bridgets Dad died....so did she collect her for home help? My nan told us how she had to take mr ryans to the blind centre and also how she would be taken to the coast with ryans children and left there to look after them for weeks on end? She also cooked and cleaned. Nan didn't mind at all she was just glad to be out of nazareth house.

Offline aghadowey

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 01 August 21 10:51 BST (UK) »
Quote
I have found o  a 1911 census that a bridget saunders of 63 columb wells was actually born in dumbarton...but just to complicate matters other census records state she was born in Ireland.
1911 census says Bridget Saunders born Scotland not Dumbarton & 1901 says Co. Londonderry. Bridget was born c1887 & I haven’t found a birth registration in Ireland. This is this Scottish birth-
SAUNDERS BRIDGET 1886  501/ 546 Old or West Kilpatrick

Quote
I have found a Mary Mullan born in dumbarton and died in 1923.she marries in 1922 then dies shortly after childbirth...is it a coincidence that this is when my nan was put in the orphanage. Her widower then marries her sister Catherine....there is a record of an adoption sealed until 2027....but they then leave for America but passenger records show no child with them? So is all this a coincidence i don't know?
Married who? Sister Catherine? These are all important details that you should have mentioned earlier.

Quote
Then looking at Bridgets brothers there is a John who marries in 1914 but then no records of children from their marriage....I also have found a John saunders living in dumbarton in 1915-1940 so is this the same man?? Also coincidentally John saunders moves house 3 times but on each census he is with a Thomas Mullan....the Mary I am looking at has an uncle Thomas is this him? Is this how she meets John???...after 1921 John and Thomas no longer share any addresses .....and in 1922 Mary marries before passing in 1923. Of course I can't prove I have the right Mary mullen the right John Saunders or Thomas Mullan
Mary has an uncle Thomas Mullan? It sounds as though you have researched this Mary Mullan and have quite a bit more information on this Mullan family?

Quote
My nan said that bridget stopped her from Going to a couple who wanted to take her to America but as you say why would did she have this authority? Unless John was the father and he stopped it?? The only thing we have from the orphanage id that Mrs Bridget ryans collects her niece in a clean and healthy state in 1931.....this is also the year bridgets Dad died....so did she collect her for home help?
Bridget’s father Daniel Saunders died in 1928 not 1931.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline aghadowey

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 01 August 21 10:55 BST (UK) »
Let’s take another look at John Saunders. I think that for aunt Bridget (Saunders) Ryan to have some say and collect Catherine from the orphanage in Scotland that there must have been some acknowledgement that John Saunders was the child’s father (assuming for the moment that he is indeed Catherine’s father). Might there be Scottish records of maintenance?

We know that John was born 1897 in Derry and married in 1914 to Margaret Jane Quigley.

Now, in Derry Cemetery online records is this interesting record-
- Rose Anne Saunders, parents- John & Mary Struthers, born Derry, residence 109 St. Columbs Wells, age  4 months, died 24 May 1922, buried 25 May 1922 [proprietor Bridget Dalby 68 St. Columbs Wells]

Does this death fit with this marriage in Scotland?
SAUNDERS   JOHN   STRUTHERS   MARY   1918   575/2 16   Scotstoun and Yoker
Death (Saunders with other name Struthers)- born c1884 (see below)
SAUNDERS   MARY   75      1959   493/ 29   Bonhill and Renton

Now here’s another interesting record I’d mentioned earlier in anther context- John’s brother William Saunders married Ellen Diamond but William died in 1913. Could John Saunders & widowed sister-in-law have had a child in 1916? From a registration point of view it’s possible. Birth registered by mother and her surname was Saunders with maiden name Diamond so she could have said father was John Saunders and the registrar wouldn’t have suspected child was illegitimate.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1916/01328/1548457.pdf

So, if this all ALL the same John Saunders-
1897- born Derry
1914- married Margaret Jane Quigley
     John only about 17- was marriage annulled, did Margaret die 1914-1918 or they simply parted?
1916- child of John Saunders & Ellen (Diamond) Saunders born Derry
     Ellen died 1919 so what happened to this child? An online tree has William as John’s father (with no death date for William so it’s not clear if they know William couldn’t be the father)
1918- married (Scot.) Mary Struthers (born 1883 according to online tree with fits age of death- above)
     Another online tree has this- 31/05/1918. Scotstoun/Yoker, Glasgow. Mary [Struthers] married John at 2 Scotstoun Place, Scotstoun. Sister Jane was a witness, Mary was working as a Domestic Servent, John as a Bricklayer.
1922- Rose Anne Saunders born cJan/Feb. & died May

When is the last record you've found for John Saunders?
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!


Offline MonicaL

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 01 August 21 21:05 BST (UK) »

...I have found a Mary Mullan born in dumbarton and died in 1923.she marries in 1922 then dies shortly after childbirth...is it a coincidence that this is when my nan was put in the orphanage. Her widower then marries her sister Catherine....there is a record of an adoption sealed until 2027....but they then leave for America but passenger records show no child with them? So is all this a coincidence i don't know?


So, looking at this family, you have a Mary Mullan born in April 1901 to a Patrick Mullan and Margaret McKell (and variants). Just before her birth in Glasgow:

Patrick Mullen 25 Gen Lab b. Ireland
Maggie Mullen

Address 48 Elgin St, Glasgow/ Camlachie

There is a family tree for this line on Ancestry (includes photos for this Mary Mullan and others) for those with a subscription - www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/159006643/person/432080780999/facts

So, this Mary, as you mention, married in Glasgow in 1922 to a James Francis McPartlin. Mary dies the following year and James remarried her sister Catherine in 1927 in Glasgow. From the family tree, Catherine born in 1907 in Glasgow.

Catherine and James leave for the US in 1927. She returns to the UK and a further 1930 shipping manifest entry for her www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24FF-PFP. Catherine died in the US in 1934 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WPP-F9X

Lisa, you could consider contacting this tree owner to check whether anyone on their side has done a DNA test to let you compare when you get yours done?

ADDED: When this Mary and sister Catherine married James Francis McPartlin, were they Roman Catholic marriages?

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 01 August 21 21:30 BST (UK) »
Have you considered this other Mary Mullan in Dumbarton in your searches?

From 1901:

Edward Thomas Mullan 32 Shipyard Riveter b. Ireland
Catherine Mullan 26
Thomas Mullan 6
William Mullan 4
Mary Anna Mullan 2
Elizabeth Craig Mullan 8 months

Address: 33 Church Street, Dumbarton

There is also a family tree for this line on A/try www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/152580175/person/172071054917/facts

Mary Anna married a Michael Devine in 1929 in Dumbarton.The ceremony was RC.

Mary Anna died in Dumbarton in 1980, mother's maiden name Gallacher which matches with other records for her.

Again, you could consider contact with family tree owners to see whether they have done their DNA?

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 01 August 21 22:02 BST (UK) »
A few more things pointing to potentially Mary Anna being mother to Catherine...

Her paternal grandparents were Bernard Mullan and Sarah Jane Marshall. The family had been living in Dumbarton for many years it seems. Sarah Jane died in 1913 at West Bridgend, Dumbarton. Husband Bernard also died at that address in 1920.  This is the address you have for Mary Mullan on the 1918 birth cert of Catherine.

Also, you mentioned the VRs for John Saunders and Thomas Mullan and them showing as living together for a number of years. I think you will find that the address was multi occupancy rather than one dwelling.

The address they both show at between 1915-1921 is House No.23 Strathleven Place, Dumbarton. When Mary Anna married in 1929, she gave her address as Cherry Tree House, Strathleven Place. Her father showed as dying at this address (No. 73 Cherry Tree House) when he died in 1937.

Monica
Census information Crown Copyright, www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MonicaL

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 01 August 21 23:13 BST (UK) »
Don't like doing so many posts in a row....however, a breakthrough  ;)

From the National Records of Scotland, we have:

Repository code 234
Repository National Records of Scotland
Reference SC65/7/1919/20
Title Mary Anna Mullen v William Clark
Dates 1919
Access status Open
Location Off site
Description Affiliation and aliment - male - 20 September 1919
Level Item
Closed until 01/01/2020
Previous numbers SC65/7/3
Departmental cipher A113/1919

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx

It is no longer a closed record. You should be able to order the document or view in person at the NRS in Edinburgh (don't know where you are based).

Whilst this is not Catherine's documents, I think given the name of mother and father's surname of Clark, it is likely relevant given Catherine's middle name of Clarke.

Does not link up or explain Aunt Bridget Ryan/Saunders  :-\

Monica
   
   
   

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Offline aghadowey

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Re: 68 st columbs well bridget ryans/saynders
« Reply #26 on: Monday 02 August 21 12:55 BST (UK) »
I did post this earlier (reply #10)-
Quote
I see 2 entries on Scotland People's births-
MULLAN CATHERINE GLADY 1918  644/10 188 Blythswood
MULLAN CATHERINE G CLA 1918  496/ 238 Dumbarton

Not sure if those 2 records might throw some light on anything.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!