Author Topic: Anthony John 1903 - 1956  (Read 1629 times)

Offline M27DDA

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Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« on: Friday 30 July 21 20:02 BST (UK) »
Evening all,

New to the forum and many years since using a forum but hoping to make to a regular resource for my research.

I would say I am relatively new to genealogy researching for just over a year now and reached what is my first real brick wall.

The person in question is who would had been my partners Great Grandfather 'Anthony John' to who's origins remain unknown.

With my research and findings I believe the following to be true.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We know from 1925 Anthony settled in Hartlepool, UK marrying his first wife Harriet Lodge in 1925 to whom he had 4 children (2 died in infancy) before Harriet died in 1935. Anthony went on to marry again in 1938 to a Margaret Mathews who he would have another 3 children with.

Anthony worked in the merchant navy his whole working life till he was dismissed during the 2nd world war and never worked again after that till he died in 1956 in Hartlepool.

After many searches in the BMD index for Anthonys birth I believe Anthony was born 7th December 1903 in Agra, Uttar Pradesh, India. I am the first to make make this connection and believe it.

The reasons I came to this conclusion is through the following sources.

In the 1939 register of the UK Anthonys birth date is recorded as 07/12/1901. After this I found a baptism record for an Anthony John in Arga born on 7/12/1903 and for many month I believed this was the Anthony I was looking for ... Unfortunately in the parents column it says unknown.

After a few month I find a newspaper clipping that ties this theory together and it read.

"Anthony John said to be the son of an officer in the Indian Army, and to have absconded from Agra College, was remanded at Grimsby, yesterday, for wandering without means. He said he had been a sailor since running away from home and had deserted a Norwegian ship because he had an enemy aboard."

It was said he claimed he spent time in Hull as a orphan and Grimsby is just over the way. But I cant find any other reference to his in the area other than this article. (Which was in papers nationwide)

My brick wall is that I just cant crack ho Anthonys parents where, or where he came from.

On Anthonys two marriages his father is listed as Albert John (Deseased) in 1925 as a Labourer and in 1938 as 'Captain Surgeon Royal Army Medical Corps'.

It is said by family members his mother may had been called Mary.

Because it is known that Anthony lied about his age to join the M.Navy stating a birth of 13/06/1901 on his CR10 card and stories of been orphaned as a young boy living descendants say he often told lies. This maybe so of the occupation of his father on the marriage to Margaret as research has shown his father-in-law from his first marriage was part of the R.A.M.C in WW1.

I have a gut theory that he could be the illegitimate child of Major Anthony Ulysses John or was at least told he was. And then on the other hand I feel like I'm starting to desperately clutch at straws.

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I would love any advice on where to start looking next? Or what peoples thoughts are.

If he was a illegitimate child of such a character what avenues would I need to go down to prove such a theory.

Or what to do when you hit such a brick wall. As its stalled my research across the other branches and become obsessed with cracking this one.

I'm close to cracking out the Ouija Board on this one

Help!  ;D

Online jim1

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 31 July 21 14:14 BST (UK) »
Hello & welcome
Separating fact from fiction is going to be difficult.
It appears he was a foundling as parents are unknown.
I don't go along with him being sent to an orphanage in the UK
& then back to India for his schooling as it doesn't make sense.
I'm wondering if he was possibly of mixed race.
It's possible he remained in India & absconded from school & worked
his passage to the UK where he lived a transient life until apprehended.
It may be the only way forward is DNA.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
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Offline seaweed

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 31 July 21 14:30 BST (UK) »
Hello and welcome to rootschat.
Could you attach a copy (both sides) of his CR10 card?
There may be information on there which will help tracing his Merchant Navy career.

You wrote
"Because it is known that Anthony lied about his age to join the M.Navy stating a birth of 13/06/1901 on his CR10 card and stories of been orphaned as a young boy living descendants say he often told lies."
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline M27DDA

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 31 July 21 14:43 BST (UK) »
Hello & welcome
Separating fact from fiction is going to be difficult.
It appears he was a foundling as parents are unknown.
I don't go along with him being sent to an orphanage in the UK
& then back to India for his schooling as it doesn't make sense.
I'm wondering if he was possibly of mixed race.
It's possible he remained in India & absconded from school & worked
his passage to the UK where he lived a transient life until apprehended.
It may be the only way forward is DNA.

Afternoon,

No I don't believe he was sent to a orphanage from India to the UK and back again. I believe the orphanage is a fabricated story. Stories passed down and from one of his daughters who is still living have said he lied a lot.

The was stories that both his parents where killed in WW1 and where medics and was a only child. But there is stories that his children where sent gifts from a brother of his.

When I brought forward the theory of India born his granddaughter who has also extensively searched said he was known to speak Punjabi, however I also accept this could had been learned through his job.

With the India theory there is just too many coincidences for it not to be his baptism for me.

I keep trying to stay only on the facts I have and when I mentioned the possibility of him been the  illegitimate child of Major Anthony Ulysses John (which is a very long shot) I was just wondering if there is some route people go down to investigate these possibilities. 


Offline M27DDA

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 31 July 21 14:46 BST (UK) »
Hello and welcome to rootschat.
Could you attach a copy (both sides) of his CR10 card?
There may be information on there which will help tracing his Merchant Navy career.

You wrote
"Because it is known that Anthony lied about his age to join the M.Navy stating a birth of 13/06/1901 on his CR10 card and stories of been orphaned as a young boy living descendants say he often told lies."

Afternoon,

Please find attached the copy of the CR10 card which has been found in various places including findmypast website.

I have been hoping to learn how to use the information on this card to find out any further information on Anthony including emailing the Southampton Archives but the email bounced with a unknown email account error.

Offline cath151

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 31 July 21 15:16 BST (UK) »
Hi
There is a merchant seaman record for an Anthony John born 13th June 1901 with photograpg and number 1011655 which is the same as noted on the 1939 register.
A tree on Familysearch, apologies if you have seen and discounted it.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/93J9-VTZ

Cathy
added    The two photos could be the same man.
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Offline M27DDA

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 31 July 21 15:46 BST (UK) »
Hi
There is a merchant seaman record for an Anthony John born 13th June 1901 with photograpg and number 1011655 which is the same as noted on the 1939 register.
A tree on Familysearch, apologies if you have seen and discounted it.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/93J9-VTZ

Cathy
added    The two photos could be the same man.

Afternoon,

Yes thank you this is the same and correct Anthony in question. Pretty much know of his life up until 1924 ... his origins and parents are the mystery.

Offline M27DDA

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 31 July 21 15:48 BST (UK) »
Hello & welcome
Separating fact from fiction is going to be difficult.
It appears he was a foundling as parents are unknown.
I don't go along with him being sent to an orphanage in the UK
& then back to India for his schooling as it doesn't make sense.
I'm wondering if he was possibly of mixed race.
It's possible he remained in India & absconded from school & worked
his passage to the UK where he lived a transient life until apprehended.
It may be the only way forward is DNA.

Sorry I also forgot to say my partner, Anthony's Great Granddaughter, has taken an DNA test on Ancestry and match with one of Anthonys daughters but that is the only link we got.

However I am not clued up on the DNA and unsure how to use it to its full potential.

Online shanreagh

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Re: Anthony John 1903 - 1956
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 01 August 21 00:27 BST (UK) »
Somewhere back in the grey matter I had the idea that John as a surname is a name connected with India.  Anglo-English perhaps ? though I also had the idea that it was a surname from India.  Looking at the back of the ID card seems to bear this out.  I am not sure if I have come across people here in NZ with this name of Indian descent or where.

Anyway from Wiki

John is a surname which, like the given name John, is derived from the Hebrew name יוֹחָנָן‎, Yōḥanan, meaning "Graced by Yahweh". People with this surname include: Anaparambil Joseph John (1893–1957), Travancorean freedom fighter and statesman, Chief Minister of Travancore-Cochin and Governor of Madras.

Just a little tip......while he may have embellished things you usually/often find grains of the real story there.  So dissect these stories.