Author Topic: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.  (Read 1491 times)

Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #45 on: Sunday 15 August 21 22:41 BST (UK) »
Ladyhawk. What a brilliant find and a fascinating document. So much information there. Doesnít paint a pretty picture of John.

Need to read it over again and take some notes. Iím still away and looking at it on my phone - not the best way to look at documents. I do have an ancestry subscription and I can see the original document. Iím surprised my searches never brought anything up, probably the smart filter not being so smart, or probably me.

The first things that jump out are the parents names on the marriage certificate. Johnís father - John Hogg - Cattle dealer and Jeanís father - William Dunn - riveter.

Iím sure Jean later gives her fatherís name as David on her marriage certificate to John Ayre in 1896.  Spidermonkey, is that correct? I didnít order that cert. But if she was illegitimate the name may not have been known to her.

As for John, Iím slightly more of the opinion that we may be looking at two different Johns. However, the timeline does fit for one - I donít know where New York John was before 1884 and I donít know where Newcastle John was after 1884. This document does shed some more light on Newcastle John though as I now know he was a tobacconist in Kelso in April 1884. I had a quick look for him in the 1891 census but nothing jumped out. I need to have a better look though. He does seem like the sort of man who would leave country rather than pay the cost of maintenance. I also need to look into how the law handled such cases in the 1880s.

It seems strange, if weíre looking at one John, why he would lie on the first marriage certificate but not on the second.

I also want to check the Scotlandís people death certificates I have. I know I clicked on a couple that were wrong, but may well be right for this John.

I also have to look for the Turner ladies and see if they really were related. My goodness.

I really canít thank you all enough.




Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #46 on: Monday 16 August 21 10:09 BST (UK) »

I also have to look for the Turner ladies and see if they really were related. My goodness.


Maybe these are the Turner ladies mentioned in the Divorce record living at 99 Byker Bank - they are twins - see below same birth registration details

1881c Piece: 5067 Folio: 33 Page Number:   12
Thomas Turner   55
Margaret Turner   56
Elizabeth Turner   17 dressmaker
Alice Turner   17

Alice Turner 27 is with her widowed father Thomas living 4 Gordon Rd., Byker in 1891

TURNER, ALICE   mmn RICHARDSON
GRO Reference: 1864  M Quarter in MORPETH  Volume 10B  Page 291   

TURNER, ELIZABETH   mmn RICHARDSON
GRO Reference: 1864  M Quarter in MORPETH  Volume 10B  Page 291   

1871 census The Turner family are living at West Wood Cottage
father Thomas Turner is a Farm Steward of 84 acres
also on that census is a
George Hogg Mar. age 24 farm servant dittoed born Northumberland

Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #47 on: Monday 16 August 21 10:48 BST (UK) »
Twins! Of course they are, this story just gets wilder.

George Hogg is interesting, as far as I know William Hogg and Mary Waldie did not have a son called George. I wonder if there is a connection.

Thinking about the latest find.
Itís interesting that Jean is described as a widow on the Ayre marriage certificate and the announcement in the paper with the Ďlate missionary William Davidsoní as the father. Is this all about keeping up appearances or was jean married and widowed between the years 1884- 1896? I searched but so far have found nothing.

Iím also thinking about the evidence of Newcastle John Hogg being connected to my line. The census only lists Scotland as the place of birth and itís really the names William Waldie, the first name Mary and his age that give credence to John being the son of Mary and William. I looked at the 1851 census for alternative infant John Hoggís in Scotland. Surprisingly, there are not too many with the father listed as John and with an agricultural occupation. I will investigate them better when Iím back properly in the online world and not looking at things on a small screen. Itís also interesting that Newcastle John is in Kelso 1884, his father and most of the rest were also in Kelso at this time. No tobacconists though.




Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #48 on: Monday 16 August 21 13:43 BST (UK) »

Iím sure Jean later gives her fatherís name as David on her marriage certificate to John Ayre in 1896.  Spidermonkey, is that correct? I didnít order that cert. But if she was illegitimate the name may not have been known to her.


Hi DudelsackHogg - yes, Jean says that her father's name was David Davidson.  Section from her marriage to John Ayre is attached.  It wouldn't surprise me if David Davidson was an entire work of fiction created to hide her illegitimacy and perhaps throw people off the scent of her divorce from John Hogg.

Offline Ladyhawk

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #49 on: Monday 16 August 21 16:21 BST (UK) »
IF the John Hogg who married Susie BACHMANN nee Abrams on 8 Sep 1884 in NY is the same John Hogg who had married Jane DUNN on 24th Dec 1877, according to the divorce petition he also allegedly committed adultery on 11th March 1884 (woman's name unknown) at 46 Clayton Street Newcastle, so he was still in the UK

A shame there is No image on FS for John Hoggís 1884 marriage to see what his occupation might be

Can a passenger list for a John Hogg born c 1848 Scotland leaving for New York be found to see if he might be the same person.

Sorry donít have a subscription to F M P - could this entry be John?

Hogg   J   born 1848   1884 Record   United States, Passenger And Crew Lists

EDIT

Thank you Sandra for adding the links below for details of the above record :)


Offline *Sandra*

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #50 on: Monday 16 August 21 16:33 BST (UK) »


Can a passenger list for a John Hogg born c 1848 Scotland leaving for New York be found to see if he might be the same person.

Sorry donít have a subscription to F M P - could this entry be John?

Hogg   J   born 1848   1884 Record   United States, Passenger And Crew Lists

J Hogg 1848 - - Ethnicity/ Nationality:   American - Age 36
Birth Date abt 1848 - Place of Origin:   United States of America
Departure Port:   Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland - Destination USA
Arrival Date 15 Apr 1884 - Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name City of Rome.  (not City Of Rirsie)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSJ-5STB

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-RM42-7?i=105&cc=1849782&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQVSJ-5STB

Early passenger lists give very basic info.

Sandra
"We search for information, but the burden of proof is always with the thread owner"

Census information is Crown Copyright  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

British Census copyright The National Archives; Canadian Census copyright Library and Archives Canada

Offline DudelsackHogg

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #51 on: Tuesday 17 August 21 09:21 BST (UK) »
I didnít know these records were on family search. Such a great resource. I suppose the nationality record is likely correct and we can probably dismiss that entry.

Is findmypast better for passenger list record sets?

Iíd previously bookmarked this entry on Ancestry as a possible passenger list for John.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVPK-SLS5

There is, however, very little information to make a conclusive match. Iíd marked it to refer back to, hoping that one of the other passenger names would click. If that entry is correct then it makes it increasingly likely that there are two Johns.

I also just came across this site from the library of Congress which has quite a lot of American newspapers online.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov

And this blog post which lists and links to an amazing number of newspapers that were published in New York.

https://theancestorhunt.com/blog/new-york-online-historical-newspapers-summary1/#comments

Going to take me quite a while to go through that information. I thought these might be a useful resource for others, if not already known.

I donít have a subscription for newspapers to check all the links on the other discussion, I wanted to start the trial when Iím back and have more time to make the most of the trial period

Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #52 on: Tuesday 17 August 21 09:56 BST (UK) »

Itís interesting that Jean is described as a widow on the Ayre marriage certificate and the announcement in the paper with the Ďlate missionary William Davidsoní as the father. Is this all about keeping up appearances or was jean married and widowed between the years 1884- 1896? I searched but so far have found nothing.



The three children are calling themselves Davidson on the 1891 census, so potentially any marriage between Jean and William Davidson would have been done then, but I really don't think a William Davidson actually existed - remember that when Jean married Ayre she gave her father's name as David Davidson, so unless we are getting into a scenario where Jean marries a cousin with the surname Davidson........... (but after the Twins revelation, who knows what else might happen!!!!)


With regards to John Hogg, I'm still thinking that both UK and USA John are the same person.  Question is, does he die out in US or does Susie get away from (potentially) an abusive relationship as Jean did? If he and Susie split up then, there is nothing tying him to New York so he could be anywhere in the world post 1884........

Offline Spidermonkey

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Re: Confusion! Possible Name Change - Hogg - Davidson.
« Reply #53 on: Tuesday 17 August 21 10:38 BST (UK) »


Can a passenger list for a John Hogg born c 1848 Scotland leaving for New York be found to see if he might be the same person.

Sorry donít have a subscription to F M P - could this entry be John?

Hogg   J   born 1848   1884 Record   United States, Passenger And Crew Lists

J Hogg 1848 - - Ethnicity/ Nationality:   American - Age 36
Birth Date abt 1848 - Place of Origin:   United States of America
Departure Port:   Liverpool, England and Queenstown, Ireland - Destination USA
Arrival Date 15 Apr 1884 - Arrival Port New York, New York, USA
Ship Name City of Rome.  (not City Of Rirsie)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSJ-5STB

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:939V-RM42-7?i=105&cc=1849782&personaUrl=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AQVSJ-5STB

Early passenger lists give very basic info.

Sandra

There is a John Hogg who arrives in Halifax, Nova Scotia on 5th April 1884 (on board the Parisian).  On the image on Ancestry, his age is an indecipherable scrawl, and he gives his profession as labourer so I am not hugely hopeful that he is our John Hogg, but thought that he was worth flagging up.