Author Topic: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion  (Read 556 times)

Offline Cloabella12

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Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« on: Thursday 02 September 21 22:36 BST (UK) »

Hello I have been stuck trying to figure out some of my ancestors for a while, if anyone can help or has any tips I would be much appreciated.

I have been trying to research my Great, Great Grandparents-

John Henry Humphreys Born: Abt. 1857 in Ludlow Shropshire(or according to one Census Wolverhampton.)

Emma Elizabeth Green Born: 1872 in Beckenham/Elmers End, Bromley.

I have found the couple and their children several times in Beckenham/Penge which is not far from where I live so itís a little easier for me to work out. I cannot work out where John Henry actually came from and can find no marriage certificate for them so Iím completely stuck with that.

So I have tried to look at Emmaís family instead. I am having trouble with her Mother- Elizabeth Green Born about 1838- Lambeth.

Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?
And some of her siblings- William, Edwin & Jane.

On some Censusís Elizabeth Green is listed as the Lucasís daughter. On some she is wed, some widowed.

The confusion continued when I tried to find all of Elizabethís childrenís birth records including Emmaís. This is what I have found:

Edwin Walter Lucas Green Born 1862 Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Esther Eliza Lucas Born 1864 Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

William Charles Lucas Born 1866
Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Emma Elizabeth Green Born 1872 Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Frederick James Green Born 1874 Bromley Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Arthur Green Born 1877 Bromley
Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Jane Ann Lucas Born 1877 Bromley Union Motherís name not listed.

So my main questions are who was Elizabeth Green? Was she the daughter or daughter in law of Frederick & Mary Ann Lucas?

Why did she name some of her Children as Green and some as Lucas? And why then is her maiden name listed as Howard? I cannot find who she really was and why she may have had the kids in the workhouse or maybe it was just the infirmary?

Lastly I found more confusion on her daughterís Esther Eliza Greenís (born Lucas) marriage certificate, where she names her father as Frederick Lucas Green?! I thought Frederick Lucas was her grandfather and where did the Green part actually come from?

Sorry for the extra long post. Itís quite complicated. Thanks for any help  :)




Offline cath151

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Re: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« Reply #1 on: Friday 03 September 21 13:57 BST (UK) »
Could this be the family in 1851, Ann born Portsmouth, the birth dates about right .
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKC-X6Z

Cathy
Sinnock/Sinnicks...Brighton,Greenwich.
Clements,Coles,Mc Donagh,Rock

Census InformationCrown Copyright from www.national archives.gov.uk

Offline Dundee

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Re: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« Reply #2 on: Friday 03 September 21 14:31 BST (UK) »
Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?

Welcome to Rootschat  :)

I can't see 'daughter in law' for Elizabeth in 1881, just 'daur'.  In 1891 she is with Frederick and it looks like daughter in law there.  At that time, this could also mean step daughter, so Frederick may not be her biological father.

Census relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household only, so if someone is the son or daughter to the head it doesn't necessarily mean that his wife was the mother.

Debra  :)


Offline osprey

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Re: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« Reply #3 on: Friday 03 September 21 15:36 BST (UK) »
possible 1841 for Frederick a shoemaker in Shoreditch. Possible brother Walter.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVJ-NTZ

The 1847 marriage to Ann Estick is another Fred, a gardener.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline confusion

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Re: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« Reply #4 on: Friday 03 September 21 21:17 BST (UK) »

Welcome to Rootschat,
There appears to be a lot of anomalies in the info you supplied

Is this the Henry J Humphreys and Emma F Green marriage 4q 1919 Poplar?
if so, it would make Emma about 47 years old.

Quote
Edwin Walter Lucas Green Born 1862 Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Esther Eliza Lucas Born 1864 Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

William Charles Lucas Born 1866 Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Emma Elizabeth Green Born 1872 Bromley Union Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Frederick James Green Born 1874 Bromley Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Arthur Green Born 1877 Bromley Motherís Maiden Name Howard

Jane Ann Lucas Born 1877 Bromley Union Motherís name not listed.

Where does the MMN of Howard fit in?

Does this help?
Edwin Walter Green bap 7 Sep 1862 Bromley Kent Fa: Henry Green Mo: Elizabeth

Edwin Walter Green marr Alice Louisa Skinner 2q 1889 Bromley

Florence Louisa Green dau born 2q 1890 Bromley MMN:Skinner
Amy Elizabeth Green dau born 4q 1895 Bromley MMN:Skinner

Can you give anymore info that would help pin down the people you need help with?

Jim

Willey, Berry, Cox, Haddock, Hutton, Griffiths/Griffin, Tanner - Worcestershire
Cox, Dudley, Harris, Moore, Neville, Payne - Warwickshire
Chambers, Douds, Dryden, Given, Hamilton, Hassan, McPherson, McWhirter, Simpson, Taggart, Vauls, Whiteside - Ireland/Scotland, Northumberland
Challis, Halls, Heady, Grove, Lawrence - Essex
Foxwell, Imm, Ward - Gloucesteshire
Heady, Collis, Griffin - Hertfordshire
Hurling - Middlesex
Willey, Imm - Monmouthshire
Imm, Hamilton, Hedge, Majury, Sollis - Canada/USA

Offline osprey

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Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

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Re: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« Reply #6 on: Friday 03 September 21 22:32 BST (UK) »
did Emma Elizabeth marry John Henry Humphreys? Have you checked how many years married on the 1911 census?
Possible death reg ?
Emma Elizabeth Green 74 dec qtr 1946 Bromley vol 8b pg 219

1891 census with detailed place of birth for Elizabeth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJSL-XPZ

1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-M2HG

1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD6-7DN
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Cloabella12

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Re: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« Reply #7 on: Friday 03 September 21 23:23 BST (UK) »
Could this be the family in 1851, Ann born Portsmouth, the birth dates about right .
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKC-X6Z

Cathy

Thanks for this. Yes I saw this. I thought it could be the family.  :)

Offline Cloabella12

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Re: Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion
« Reply #8 on: Friday 03 September 21 23:27 BST (UK) »
Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?

Welcome to Rootschat  :)

I can't see 'daughter in law' for Elizabeth in 1881, just 'daur'.  In 1891 she is with Frederick and it looks like daughter in law there.  At that time, this could also mean step daughter, so Frederick may not be her biological father.

Census relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household only, so if someone is the son or daughter to the head it doesn't necessarily mean that his wife was the mother.

Debra  :)

Oh yes sorry it was the 1891 census which suggests Emma was the Lucasí daughter in law rather than daughter. Iím so confused.

Thanks, Chloe  :)