Emma Elizabeth Green surname confusion

[Cloabella12]

Hello I have been stuck trying to figure out some of my ancestors for a while, if anyone can help or has any tips I would be much appreciated.

I have been trying to research my Great, Great Grandparents-

John Henry Humphreys Born: Abt. 1857 in Ludlow Shropshire(or according to one Census Wolverhampton.)

Emma Elizabeth Green Born: 1872 in Beckenham/Elmers End, Bromley.

I have found the couple and their children several times in Beckenham/Penge which is not far from where I live so it’s a little easier for me to work out. I cannot work out where John Henry actually came from and can find no marriage certificate for them so I’m completely stuck with that.

So I have tried to look at Emma’s family instead. I am having trouble with her Mother- Elizabeth Green Born about 1838- Lambeth.

Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?
And some of her siblings- William, Edwin & Jane.

On some Census’s Elizabeth Green is listed as the Lucas’s daughter. On some she is wed, some widowed.

The confusion continued when I tried to find all of Elizabeth’s children’s birth records including Emma’s. This is what I have found:

Edwin Walter Lucas Green Born 1862 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Esther Eliza Lucas Born 1864 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

William Charles Lucas Born 1866
Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Emma Elizabeth Green Born 1872 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Frederick James Green Born 1874 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Arthur Green Born 1877 Bromley
Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Jane Ann Lucas Born 1877 Bromley Union Mother’s name not listed.

So my main questions are who was Elizabeth Green? Was she the daughter or daughter in law of Frederick & Mary Ann Lucas?

Why did she name some of her Children as Green and some as Lucas? And why then is her maiden name listed as Howard? I cannot find who she really was and why she may have had the kids in the workhouse or maybe it was just the infirmary?

Lastly I found more confusion on her daughter’s Esther Eliza Green’s (born Lucas) marriage certificate, where she names her father as Frederick Lucas Green?! I thought Frederick Lucas was her grandfather and where did the Green part actually come from?

Sorry for the extra long post. It’s quite complicated. Thanks for any help 

[cath151]

Could this be the family in 1851, Ann born Portsmouth, the birth dates about right .
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKC-X6Z

Cathy

[Dundee]

Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?

Welcome to Rootschat 

I can't see 'daughter in law' for Elizabeth in 1881, just 'daur'.  In 1891 she is with Frederick and it looks like daughter in law there.  At that time, this could also mean step daughter, so Frederick may not be her biological father.

Census relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household only, so if someone is the son or daughter to the head it doesn't necessarily mean that his wife was the mother.

Debra 

[osprey]

possible 1841 for Frederick a shoemaker in Shoreditch. Possible brother Walter.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQVJ-NTZ

The 1847 marriage to Ann Estick is another Fred, a gardener.

[confusion]

Welcome to Rootschat,
There appears to be a lot of anomalies in the info you supplied

Is this the Henry J Humphreys and Emma F Green marriage 4q 1919 Poplar?
if so, it would make Emma about 47 years old.

Edwin Walter Lucas Green Born 1862 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Esther Eliza Lucas Born 1864 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

William Charles Lucas Born 1866 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Emma Elizabeth Green Born 1872 Bromley Union Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Frederick James Green Born 1874 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Arthur Green Born 1877 Bromley Mother’s Maiden Name Howard

Jane Ann Lucas Born 1877 Bromley Union Mother’s name not listed.

Where does the MMN of Howard fit in?

Does this help?
Edwin Walter Green bap 7 Sep 1862 Bromley Kent Fa: Henry Green Mo: Elizabeth

Edwin Walter Green marr Alice Louisa Skinner 2q 1889 Bromley

Florence Louisa Green dau born 2q 1890 Bromley MMN:Skinner
Amy Elizabeth Green dau born 4q 1895 Bromley MMN:Skinner

Can you give anymore info that would help pin down the people you need help with?

Jim

[osprey]

just to give some context
1911 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW8P-FTT

1901 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9X1-D25

baptism for Walter Leonard
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NTT2-YL9

baptism for John Henry the son
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJLV-DTL

[osprey]

did Emma Elizabeth marry John Henry Humphreys? Have you checked how many years married on the 1911 census?
Possible death reg ?
Emma Elizabeth Green 74 dec qtr 1946 Bromley vol 8b pg 219

1891 census with detailed place of birth for Elizabeth
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJSL-XPZ

1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27W-M2HG

1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFD6-7DN

[Cloabella12]

Could this be the family in 1851, Ann born Portsmouth, the birth dates about right .
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGKC-X6Z

Cathy

Thanks for this. Yes I saw this. I thought it could be the family. 

[Cloabella12]

Emma is listed on the 1881 Census living at Eden Road Beckenham with her apparent Grandparents-
Frederick Lucas & Mary Ann Lucas,
Her Mother is listed as their Daughter in Law?

Welcome to Rootschat 

I can't see 'daughter in law' for Elizabeth in 1881, just 'daur'.  In 1891 she is with Frederick and it looks like daughter in law there.  At that time, this could also mean step daughter, so Frederick may not be her biological father.

Census relationships were supposed to be to the head of the household only, so if someone is the son or daughter to the head it doesn't necessarily mean that his wife was the mother.

Debra 

Oh yes sorry it was the 1891 census which suggests Emma was the Lucas’ daughter in law rather than daughter. I’m so confused.

Thanks, Chloe