Author Topic: Charles henry briggs.  (Read 1770 times)

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 12 September 21 06:11 BST (UK) »
I think that the records from the Sydney Benevolent Asylum would be of more use to you than would records from the Randwick Asylum.

Ann BRIGGS, plus Alice and Charles are admitted together so you might hope to see something more than names and ages.

By the time Alice and John are admitted to the Randwick Asylum, 1865, from the B(enevolent)A(sylum)  they are recorded as children of deceased father, and mother who has deserted. There might be details relating to attempts to contact mother or other relatives.

Can you include the names of informants for the Birth certificate, Charles BRIGGS.

Can you name informant for death certificate, William BRIGGS, 1858, and cause of death.

William BRIGGS died, 1858, and Ann has her next child 1865?. I think it is very likely that Ann has another child (John?) before the birth of BROWN children.

https://sydneybenevolentasylum.com/

Offline sandiehawk

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 12 September 21 06:19 BST (UK) »
The informant on William Briggs death (1858) was his wife Ann and she was the informant on her son Charles birth.

Offline sandiehawk

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #20 on: Monday 13 September 21 01:50 BST (UK) »
Majm,  I'm sorry but I don't understand what I'm looking for on the marriage registration for Charles.
What should I see in the bottom right corner or at the end of the notes?

If there was a child (John?) born before William died in Dec 1858 and after Charles was born then Ann would have to be expecting again within that six months.

He and Louisa were married in a house at Nelson Plains according to the rites of the Presbyterian Church. The ceremony was conducted by Robert Boag LLD. Presbyterian minister at Hinton church.

I have asked for more information from Sydney Benevolent Asylum.
I don't think the entry for Ann could be correct as she was already married again at that time.
Sandie.


Offline sandiehawk

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #21 on: Monday 13 September 21 03:20 BST (UK) »
I have just received more details from the Sydney Benevolent Asylum.
It seems Ann 31, Alice 7, Charles 5 and John 3 were admitted to the Asylum on 3 Oct 1863.

Ann and John absconded on 14 Nov 1863.

John "thrown over the fence" on 16 Nov 1863.

Alice sent to Randwick on 3 Apr 1865.

John sent on 25 Jul 1865.

Charles sent on 6 Aug 1866.
Sandie.

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #22 on: Monday 13 September 21 07:24 BST (UK) »

Benevolent Asylum....are you looking at an image of original handwritten documents?.  I am surprised that you have been able to receive written information from the Benevolent Asylum so quickly.

Using NSM BDM Index -

https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/lifelink/familyhistory/search/marriages?18

can you please identify the marriage of Ann BRIGGS nee SMITH, and George BROWN.

John BRIGGS is recorded with age that gives a birth after the 1858 death of Charles Henry BRIGGS.

Offline sandiehawk

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #23 on: Monday 13 September 21 07:37 BST (UK) »
Wivenhoe, I have from the Sydney Benevolent Asylum a printed list of the admission/discharge details of the Briggs members that I requested. I've asked for all relevant documents about them. This will take a bit longer and there is a fee.

I haven't been able to see a marriage document for Ann and George brown yet. Just on Ancestry trees and on the marriage registration that I have for Ann and third husband Frederick Rice.

Not sure what you mean about John's birth being after the death of Charles H Briggs 1858.

Sandie.

Offline sparrett

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #24 on: Monday 13 September 21 08:51 BST (UK) »
Quite possibly there was not a BRIGGS/BROWN marriage, but there was need to make the children's births seem legitimate. So it was just stated as fact.
Sue
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Offline majm

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #25 on: Monday 13 September 21 12:11 BST (UK) »
I agree with Sue,  it is quite possible there was no formal marriage for the widow, Ann BRIGGS to a Mr BROWN.   There was no cross checking by NSW BDM  officials re the family history details on official records.

I agree with wivenhoe,  the B.A. records take some time to access even when there is no lockdown delays.  The info already posted is easily found  and deduced from the online index.  John BRIGGS aged 3 in late 1863  can be half brother to Ann's older children.   Ann is listed on that index as Briggs,  but it is only an index, so it is not clear what surname she was actually known by at that time.   

It is logical for the B.A (and many other institutions, churches, schools, courts, neighbours) in that era to refer to the mother of children in their care as Mrs. and as a courtesy assume she had the same surname as the one her children use.   So the older children would have first hand knowledge/ memories of their dad,  and know he was Mr BRIGGS, hence all the children would be known by that surname .... 

Re the 1876 marriage document.  Are you looking at a certified copy, or an official tranacription?   Is its orientation in portrait or landscape....  if it is a certified copy, did you purchase it directly from NSW bdm or had it been shared?   

The reason I ask is simply that it is quite unusual to find a fully reconciled marriage registration for that era.  Many/most of the clergy across the various denominations (Church of England, Roman Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist and many others)  ....were NOT yet prepared to fully inform the secular administration at NSW Registrar Generals Office, re tge couples being married.  It was a long running dispute.... 1856 to mid 1890s. 

In around 1910, the NSW government commenced funding to reconcile their own bdm marriage registers with the clergy records held by the churches. 

The reconciliation process started with the churches in Sydney.  World War I diverted the experienced officers in the NSW bdm to clerical duties at AIF base records.  The NSW bdm reconcilation process has not resumed  it has been, stalled for over 100 years. Soon no one will be around who can eadily read the longhand handwriting as that style ceased being taught in NSW in the 1960s.   

When a m.c. had been reconciled, the clerks recorded which church registers and dates had been inspected and the senior officers then audited and re-certified in the margin.

If your copy is in portrait orientation, the margin to inspect is bottom right hand corner.  If it is landacape, the margin entey can be after the formal entry and before the signature of the certifying officer.  If it is an official transcription, the Agent notes it as an endorsement .... some marriages registered in the years 1856 to 1881 needed up to five church registers to be inspected before the place of birth, age and occupation of the bride and groom AND the names and occupation of theur dads, and the names, former names and maiden names of their mums were finally known to the NSW bdm Registrar Generals office. 

BUT, the clergy would usually note who provides consent where either or both were not yet 21.  That consent info was usually noted in the 'white space' near where the clergy cited which set of rites. (Add.... as mentioned in earlier post, 500 pounds fine if clergy did not obtain proper consent ... thats a fine equivalent to several years salary, so you would expect clergy would record consent on summary sent through at the time of initial registration)

JM (one finger typing, into tiny dialigue box please excuse spelling)

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Offline sandiehawk

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Re: Charles henry briggs.
« Reply #26 on: Monday 13 September 21 13:14 BST (UK) »
The marriage registration is in landscape orientation. In a box above and to the right of the relevant information are the words  "Certified copy furnished under part v of the Registration of Births. Deaths and Marriages Act, 1973"

Underneath the names, dates etc are the words "I, Vernon Mark Bennett, hereby certify that the above is a true copy of particulars recorded in a register kept by me"

Further on the bottom right is the signature of the Principal Registrar next to " Issued at Sydney 17th Oct 1988"  and a round stamp/seal.

The document was purchased by someone else and shared with me.

I have other marriage certificates where the father has given consent but it's not on this document.

I don't know yet what happened to
Betsey, born 1849
Charles H, born 1854 and presumably died before 1858
John, born abt 1860.

The only children noted on Ann's death registration were
 William C.
Thomas J.
Alice S L.
Charles.
1 male and 1 female deceased.