Charles henry briggs.

[Sandiehawk]

Sparrett, thankfully we have just gone into lockdown again (regional Vic) so I had plenty of time to read the very long Trove article about young Frederick Rice.
I knew of the name Waite and on looking in my tree I see quite a few connections.

One of William Briggs (1806-1858) and Ann Smith's  sons was...
Thomas J (1851-1928)  married Susannah Waite (1855-1934)

One of his (Thomas') brothers was William C (1847-1945) Known as the Butcher of Muttama. Not a murderer but a butcher.
He married Elizabeth Charlesworth and had 12 children and among them....

James (1884-1973) married Mary Waite.

Thomas Bruce (1888-1962) was 17 in 1905.

John Thomas (1878-1931)  married Selina Emily Waite.

Florence (1886-1977)

I found a tree on Ancestry for William Henry Waite (1857-1930)
He and wife Mary Billingsley had 10 children including...
William Edward (1885-1939)
John Henry (1890-1950)
Eliza Mary (1887-1975)  She married James Briggs (1884-1973)

I wonder if Ann Smith's son John (1860-) was the John who took care of Fred Rice.

William C and Thomas J were brothers of my Charles Henry.

Thanks also for extra info on Trove.  Poor Fred, he seemed a bit lost.

Wivenhoe, Charles H Briggs is my great-grandfather.
On his marriage doc he was married at Mr Davis home, Nelson Plains.
 Rev Robert Boag officiated. Rites of the Presbyterian Church.
Richard Holwell and Eliza Partridge were witnesses.

Charles move a few times. Was a farmer then for most of his life, a carpenter.
Thank you all for so much help, it's so amazing!
Sandie.

[majm]

Sands Pastoral Directory 1915
GUNDAGAI district, Gundagai Pastures Protection Board.
George H BROWN,  Muttama, 9 horses, 10 cattle, 1690 sheep, 1081 acres.
W WAITE, Muttama, 14 horses, 17 cattle, 50 sheep, 600 acres.

NSW Electoral Roll 1902 HUME
polling at Muttama:
Charles Henry BRIGGS, of Muttama, labourer,
Elizabeth BRIGGS, of Muttama, domestic duties
Emily BRIGGS, of Muttama, domestic duties
John BRIGGS, of Muttama Creek, labourer
Susan BRIGGS, of Muttama, domestic duties
Thomas BRIGGS, of Muttama, labourer,
Thomas BRIGGS, junior, of Muttama, labourer
William BRIGGS, of Muttama Creek, farmer
William BRIGGS, junior, of Muttama, labourer
Samuel BROWN, of Muttama, labourer
Emily WAITE, of Muttama domestic duties
Sarah WAITE, of Muttama, domestic duties

Same roll, but polling at Gundagai
Frederick RICE, of Burra Burra, ------------ (JM notes that line usually indicating a retired person)


NSW Electoral Roll 1902 NORTH SYDNEY
Polling at Wurru Birri 
Charles Henry BRIGGS, 149 Falcon Street, carpenter.
William BRIGGS, 27 Lower Bayview Street, labourer.

JM

[majm]

His mother asserts here that Frederick Charles BROWN/RICE exhibited challenging behaviours and was not easy to bring up. 1902

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144040177

His death was registered in both names he used.

BROWN Frederick C
9288/1931
42 YRS MENTAL HOSP
ORANGE

RICE Frederick C
9288/1931
42 YRS MENTAL HOSP
ORANGE

Sue

Well,  ummm..... 9288/1931 is indexed not twice, not thrice, but FOUR times ! .... those ancient rellies have been on the phone with some info, and I have been snipping an image, see attached.

  Frederick Charles, son of Catherine, died at Bloomfield Hospital, Orange.  Oral local history shared:  In 1931 some sections were still under construction, building started mid 1920s.

NSW BDM  surnames indexed for Frederick:
BROWN, O'BRIEN, OBRIEN, RICE. 

My ancient ones suggest O'Brien could be reflecting Ann SMITH's second married surname BRYAN.

Here's the snip   

JM

[wivenhoe]

I think that in the area...Cootamundra...Goulburn...Gundagai....Muttama...there are BROWNs  and O'BRIENSs.

Where these names are relevant to the BRIGGS family I suspect that they are used/transcribed such as to be interchangeable, reflecting the literacy of the informants and recorders.

And there are BRYANTs in Muttama.

[majm]

Many surnames found on cemetery records.... here's Muttama Cemetery

https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2597675/muttama-cemetery

JM

[majm]

background https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758670.0

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/15101309 smh 9 August 1909  Charles & Louisa's youngest son.

JM

[sparrett]

Good finding from the rellies about the younger Fred.

I can see why he may have used the surname Rice, his grandmother's surname.
 
 Catherine (BROWN) was only about 7 years when her father Simon BROWN died and, as her mother quickly married RICE, she possibly adopted his surname at the time. Catherine was about 20 when young Fred was born so it is not surprising he was known as Fred RICE.

However, I am truly stumped as to why the surname BRIEN/BRYAN/O'BRIEN became an alternative for young Fred.

I have seen no evidence of Annie (nee SMITH) in a relationship with a man of that name, the only occurrence being her surname at marriage to Simon BROWN.

Has anyone located anything?

Sue

[majm]

I wonder if Bryan/Brien is a mis-read for Brown?  Compulsory secular education did not come to NSW until the 1870s, and then it took 'for ever' to reach into the rural communities.   Many 'central schools' were half-day ones.   Literacy and penmanship go hand in hand, so without the opportunity and encouragement to practice, ....

JM

[wivenhoe]

I think that BRIEN / O'BRIEN / BRYAN are variations of the one name when found anywhere.

Where they appear in connection with the BRIGGS family, NSW, second half of 19th century,  I think they are also variations of BROWN.