Author Topic: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles  (Read 322 times)

Offline AnnieBard

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Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« on: Tuesday 14 September 21 18:51 BST (UK) »
That's me going around in circles, not him!

Bear with me … James Butcher married Elizabeth Fleetwood in Shepton Mallet, Somerset, in 1826, both were OTP. He was a widower, she was a spinster. All the records I've found to date that relate to him (e.g. re. his children's bpts, all b. Frome) give his occupation as either Cordwainer or Shoe Maker. He died in Frome in Feb 1841 and on his death certificate his occupation is given as Shoemaker, his age as 60, and the informant was Ann Fleetwood, Elizabeth Fleetwood’s mother.

Ultimately I'm trying to confirm his birth date and the identify of his parents, but there really are a lot of James Butchers in Somerset and beyond and I have nothing so far that would help determine for sure where he was born.

My only other clue is his wife Elizabeth's 1882 death cert. - informant is her granddaughter Elizabeth Butcher (nee Scammels, she married a Frank Butcher, I think unrelated, possibly a distant cousin) - which declares she is the widow of a Greenwich pensioner. I have found ADM records for a Greenwich out pensioner called James Butcher, no. 5124, b. date apparently 1778, but it looks like that pension continued to be paid out after 1841. And - correct me if I'm wrong please - he didn't die in service so his widow would have had no entitlement. Finally, I can't find anything to suggest ‘my’ James Butcher was a Marine.

Perhaps more experienced eyes than mine can find something I haven't? Or point me at Navy records I might have missed? If anyone can help me unravel this I'd be truly grateful!
Somerset and Wiltshire: Rodgers, Wilkins, Maundrill, Tucker, Adlam, Carey, Butcher, Fleetwood AND Scotland: Rodgers

Online medpat

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 08:19 BST (UK) »
I don't know about then but now if a serviceman qualifies for a pension due to length of service he receives a pension until he dies then his widow is entitled to be paid half the amount the ex-serviceman was entitled to.

Does it stop around the time of her death that might be the clue?
GEDmatch M157477

Offline Viktoria

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 08:59 BST (UK) »
Just to clarify, a cordwainer is a shoemaker.
Same job.
Comes from the very fine  Spanish Cordovan  leather used to make quality shoes.
You would expect it to be something to do with rope making ,wouldn’t you.
If you knew that my apologies ,but it seemed that perhaps you thought it a different occupation,which won’t help with your searches.
Viktoria.


Offline amondg

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 09:45 BST (UK) »
Does it give dates of service? There is a 7 year gap between the birth of daughter Elizabeth Jane 1827 and daughter Sarah 1834. I didn't see any burials of infant children belonging to them.

Online Rena

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 14:00 BST (UK) »
That's me going around in circles, not him!

 Finally, I can't find anything to suggest ‘my’ James Butcher was a Marine.


I have something similar with one of my lines in Midlothian, Scotland.   He's in the 1841 census as an old man working as a "servant".  I then found him in the  1851 census as an ancient man living with a nephew and his family, "occupation: Greenwich Pensioner".
Some of his children were born in Midlothian and some in Glasgow, Scotland.

Online literature at the time stated that men who had been called up to serve in the navy to defend their country were known as "Landsmen" = in other words; they had not served an apprenticeship on a ship;  their occupation in peace time was carried out on the land, not at sea.

Additionally, literature at that time also stated that due to the maritime Greenwich Hospital not being large enough to hold all its pensioners many had had to be "outpatients" tended by family.   Unfortunaately when I 'phoned Edinburgh archives to enquire about outpatient records the archivist was unable to assist.  I didn't even manage to put a registration number to his name due to the name being very common at that time.

Greenwich Hospital was originally known as 'The Royal Hospital for Seamen' and was the project of Queen Mary II. She started it soon after becoming Queen in 1689, when she noted soldiers had their Chelsea Hospital but there were no hospital facilities for mariners and their families.. It was designed by Sir Christopher Wren (who offered to design the hospital without charge, as it was for a good cause). It was built between 1696 and 1712.
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Offline AnnieBard

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 15:40 BST (UK) »
I don't know about then but now if a serviceman qualifies for a pension due to length of service he receives a pension until he dies then his widow is entitled to be paid half the amount the ex-serviceman was entitled to. Does it stop around the time of her death that might be the clue?

That’s a thought, thank you. I’ll check!
Somerset and Wiltshire: Rodgers, Wilkins, Maundrill, Tucker, Adlam, Carey, Butcher, Fleetwood AND Scotland: Rodgers

Offline AnnieBard

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 15:44 BST (UK) »
Just to clarify, a cordwainer is a shoemaker. Same job. …
If you knew that my apologies ,but it seemed that perhaps you thought it a different occupation,which won’t help with your searches.
I did know, yes, but no worries. I myself often find it hard to work out what level of understanding people have with just the way they’ve phrased their questions to go on. Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Somerset and Wiltshire: Rodgers, Wilkins, Maundrill, Tucker, Adlam, Carey, Butcher, Fleetwood AND Scotland: Rodgers

Offline AnnieBard

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 15:53 BST (UK) »
Does it give dates of service? There is a 7 year gap between the birth of daughter Elizabeth Jane 1827 and daughter Sarah 1834. I didn't see any burials of infant children belonging to them.
No it doesn’t, which I believe is unusual, but I have no idea why that information would be missing. The pension record I found became payable in 1826 when the recipient was 48, so I guess that means wherever he was for those seven years he wasn’t in the Navy (assuming of course that it is ‘my’ James Butcher’s pension). I’ve also wondered about the gap between Elizabeth and Sarah. Thank you for taking the time to look at this  :D
Somerset and Wiltshire: Rodgers, Wilkins, Maundrill, Tucker, Adlam, Carey, Butcher, Fleetwood AND Scotland: Rodgers

Offline AnnieBard

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Re: Greenwich pensioner going around in circles
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 15 September 21 16:02 BST (UK) »
I have something similar with one of my lines in Midlothian, Scotland. … I didn't even manage to put a registration number to his name due to the name being very common at that time.
Thanks for the info. Rena. If you’re still looking for your chap and haven’t seen this site before it might be of help https://sites.google.com/site/greenwichadmiraltyinpensioner/home, and this page specifically deals with tracking down out-pensioners https://sites.google.com/site/greenwichadmiraltyinpensioner/out-pensioner-research---a-case-study The admiralty records referred to are here https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-pensions/
Somerset and Wiltshire: Rodgers, Wilkins, Maundrill, Tucker, Adlam, Carey, Butcher, Fleetwood AND Scotland: Rodgers