Ann Ratcliffe of Liverpool

[Yorkyboyl]

i am hoping that someone may be able to fill in the missing details I have on Ann and her immediate family, please
  Ann was born 22/7/38 in Liverpool and christened 2/8/1838 at St. Peters Liverpool, her parents are shown as James and Elizabeth. Ann went on to marry in Leeds in 1858 and seemed to spend the rest of her life there. Her father, James was born in 1806 in Salford, and the only marriage I can find for him is 18/10/1846, when he married an Elizabeth Greenlees at Manchester Cathedral .....they were shown as widower and widow, with her father being shown as John Hall, indicating her maiden name would have been Elizabeth Hall and that her husband Mr. Greenlees had died. The 1851 census shows the Ratcliffe  family living in Pitfield Stret, Hunslet, Leeds, and along with Ann, age 12 there are two sons James,age 7 and Felix, age 6...born born in France.
      I cannot find Ann in 1841 census.
      I cannot find a marriage for James before 1846.
      I cannot find a marriage for Elizabeth Hall/Greenlees before 1846
      Is it coincidence that Ann's mother was also called Elizabeth, or were  Eliz. Greenlees and James together before they actually married?
      How do the births of the two boys in France fit into the picture ?
  Any help whatsoever would be greatly appreciated, thanks
         

[rosie99]

1841
HO107
Piece 519
Book  10
Folio  33
Page 13

Boundary Street Northshore Cottages, Kirkdale, Lancashire
James Ratcliffe 30 Engineer
Elizabeth 30
Ann 3
separate household in case she is relevant
Betsey Hall 30
Nancy Murphy 15
Mary Swaney (?) 20
Eliza Greenshack (?) 20
James Greenshack (?) 1 month

[rosie99]

RATCLIFF, ANN       Mothers maiden surname GREENLESS 
GRO Reference: 1838  Sept Quarter in WEST DERBY  Volume 20  Page 817

[rosie99]

.....they were shown as widower and widow, with her father being shown as John Hall, indicating her maiden name would have been Elizabeth Hall and that her husband Mr. Greenlees had died.

She could have been illegitimate and not given her fathers surname.

That marriage was 18 October 1846, the boys would have been born before that. I can't read the surname of the witness whose first name was Felix, is it Burns.

[rosie99]

Baptism for Felix Ratcliffe was at St Pauls, Manchester 26 May 1844 -parents James & Elizabeth
(family search has PR image)

[Yorkyboyl]

Hi there,
   Thanks for the reply and the info. on 1841 census...one more piece of the jigsaw.  Is it a bit of a coincidence that there was a Betsey Hall living nearby ? given the fact that James's wife when marrying in 1846 could have had the maiden name Hall. Also is there any reason other than the obvious why the 1846 marriage should show both of them as widower and widow ? It would seem that James and Elizabeth Greenlees were living together for quite some time before the marriage as she appears to be the mother of his three children.
  As a point of interest there is an entry for James, b.1806 , died in 1867 and buried in Grantsville, Salt Lake City, Utah, and gives his wife as Elizabeth Greenlees, her parents shown as John Greenlees and Hannah Owen.
   Not really explored the French conection yet.
   Thanks again
   

[ShaunJ]

There are many submitted trees on Ancestry and Geneanet and elsewhere for this family. One of them has a document written by James Ratcliffe junior which begins: " My parents were English but either owing to a visit or their going there for employment, my birthplace was Rouen, France. I was born 19 May 1842"

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/117107710/person/240158972320/gallery