Gretna or Lockerbie? Marriage mystery

[RossGillbanks]

Hi all I have a marriage I have been trying to work out for a little while!

So the "facts" based on a Westminster workhouse document in 1882 claims James Gilbanks married Ann Reid/Read in 1840 in Lockerbie, no marriage cert. The problem with this is James' and Ann's age on this document isn't correct, it is around 10 years off! So this causes my first issue.

secondly on the 1841 census I have for James in Whitehaven, Cumberland Ann is not listed with him on this census. However in 1850 their son was born and on the 1851 census they are listed as married. I did think well maybe they married in August 1850 rather than August 1840. However I also felt this is unlikely as their son was born July 1850 and if they was going to marry it would be before the son was born.

I speculate they didn't marry in Lockerbie BUT in the area, Gretna isn't too far away? Would it seem plausible that they may have married more around 1849/1850? Given they were already off on their ages by around 10 years. Wouldn't it be unlikely for a couple to marry 10 years prior to their first child? I have asked several others this question and they have all said generally the first child is born within a few years of the marriage.

I know who James' parents are but not Ann's. To add to the confusion on their sons birth cert she is listed as Hannah not Ann, likewise with the 1851 census. All census and documents after this she is listed as Ann.

James was born Threlkeld 1816, Baptised in Whitehaven, Ann allegedly born Roxburgh from Census' but I cannot confirm this as I have not been able to narrow down who Ann is or her parents. Their son born Penrith Cumberland 13th July 1850.

I have tried looking in Lockerbie for a marriage between these two with no joy unfortunately. I was unsure how I could search for all marriage records in Gretna? It might be hard to read so not transcribed or just on a scrap of paper. Of course there is a possibility that there isn't any record of this marriage but I would like to try my best to find it.

[ColC]

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk has two possible records for Ann in Roxburghshire.

However there are no marriage records on SP at Lockerbie, there are no records for that place. 

REID   ANN   THOMAS REID/MARY HUNTER    19/03/1820   Kelso

REID   ANNE   GEORGE REID/CHRISTIAN TURNBULL    20/01/1822   Wilton

The one above is on the 1841 with her parents noted as age 15, which would have been rounded down from 19.

Colin

[CaroleW]

Was Benjamin their first born?  If so - it would seem to suggest a later marriage than 1840 - assuming they did actually marry

[RossGillbanks]

Was Benjamin their first born?  If so - it would seem to suggest a later marriage than 1840 - assuming they did actually marry

As far as I am aware he is their only child. These two really have given me a hard time! William listed with the family on the 1851 Census in Penrith workhouse was worked out by another user that he is James' brothers son. I agree with a later Marriage than 1840 but not knowing the actual place of marriage really is giving me a hard time, I presume somewhere in the Dumfriesshire area but not Lockerbie which is what pushes me to Gretna as I can't find anything for them. I don't know if the age thing was simply bad memory or intentional though. James passed in 1886 so the Westminster workhouse document was taken only 4 years prior.

There has been things I have found when researching this line which makes me wonder, for example if the names were simply misheard (in 1861 & 1871 the surname Killbanks in Newcastle, Benjamin even married in Newcastle under that name and had children before moving down to London and marrying again a few years later). Or if they done it intentionally, Likewise with the ages; could there be a benefit to saying they were older than their actual age? Benjamin's age stays accurate but James' & Ann's does not.

Sorry I know a lot of that is not entirely relevant but it really does get me thinking

[RossGillbanks]

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk has two possible records for Ann in Roxburghshire.

However there are no marriage records on SP at Lockerbie, there are no records for that place. 

REID   ANN   THOMAS REID/MARY HUNTER    19/03/1820   Kelso

REID   ANNE   GEORGE REID/CHRISTIAN TURNBULL    20/01/1822   Wilton

The one above is on the 1841 with her parents noted as age 15, which would have been rounded down from 19.

Colin

Thank you Colin, Funny enough these are the two I first looked at and the two that I still can't rule out either! I did think well maybe she wasn't born Roxburgh but then trying to search further afield made things much more difficult as it turns out Ann Reid is a popular name! Who would have guessed

[DonM]

Here is one of 3 the rest on Family Search.  None in Scotland  - Non Conformists

I didn't look for others under Gillbanks

Don

Name:   James Gilbanks
Sex:   Male
Wife:   Ann Gilbanks
Son:   Benjamin Gilbanks
Other information in the record of Benjamin Gilbanks
from England, Cumbria Parish Registers, 1538-1990

Name:   
Benjamin Gilbanks
Sex:   
Male
Baptism Date:   
14 Aug 1850
Baptism Place:   
Penrith, Cumberland, England, United Kingdom
Father's Name:   
James Gilbanks
Father's Sex:   
Male
Mother's Name:   
Ann Gilbanks
Mother's Sex:   
Female

[Galium]

Sorry, I know this is a slightly different topic, but just to save anybody looking up things already known:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=850537.0

re children arriving some time after a marriage; today I was looking at a couple in my own tree who married in 1903 and only ever had one child, born in 1916.  Sometimes it's like that.

[RossGillbanks]

Here is one of 3 the rest on Family Search.  None in Scotland  - Non Conformists

I didn't look for others under Gillbanks

Don

Name:   James Gilbanks
Sex:   Male
Wife:   Ann Gilbanks
Son:   Benjamin Gilbanks
Other information in the record of Benjamin Gilbanks
from England, Cumbria Parish Registers, 1538-1990

Name:   
Benjamin Gilbanks
Sex:   
Male
Baptism Date:   
14 Aug 1850
Baptism Place:   
Penrith, Cumberland, England, United Kingdom
Father's Name:   
James Gilbanks
Father's Sex:   
Male
Mother's Name:   
Ann Gilbanks
Mother's Sex:   
Female

Thank you Don, Yes the Father was from Cumberland however Ann allegedly was from Scotland and they allegedly married in Scotland too. The issue is finding said Marriage

[RossGillbanks]

Sorry, I know this is a slightly different topic, but just to save anybody looking up things already known:

https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=850537.0

re children arriving some time after a marriage; today I was looking at a couple in my own tree who married in 1903 and only ever had one child, born in 1916.  Sometimes it's like that.

Thank you Galium. I always forget to cross reference my posts! Your point is very true indeed and I agree it is defiantly still a possibility it's the lack of finding a marriage as I would like to find out more regards Ann Reid's family if possible