Author Topic: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?  (Read 1912 times)

Offline nosdrahcir

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 14:11 BST (UK) »
To corroborate the previous posts regarding Annie Black being the daughter of William Black and Mary Lutton...
 
Northern Whig, 26 May 1917: THE RANK AND FILE ... Lance Corporal Thomas Sillars, son of Mr. John Sillars, 60, Dover Street, Belfast, and husband of Mrs. Sillars, 3, Ballyclare Street.

Thomas 'Sellars' married Annie Black in May Street Presbyterian Church on 20 September 1915, the bride's father was recorded as William Black, block printer:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09817/5564732.pdf

"Husband of Mrs. A. Sillars, of 3, Ballyclare St., Belfast.":
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/544710/T%20SILLARS/

Annie remarried on 26 January 1920, to a James Richardson, again her father's details were given as William Black, block printer:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09247/5347101.pdf

Thanks gaffy! This does look like the right Annie Black so thank you for helping flesh out her life story! Paul!!
Looking For:
Darwen - Richardson / Walsh / Harwood
Middlesbrough - Hunter / O'Lone
Belfast - Haughey / Stewart / Henderson / Black
Norfolk - Hunter / Langley
Boyle - Harney

Offline nosdrahcir

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 14:18 BST (UK) »
Had this ready to post last night but wasn't online-
I think that Ann Victoria Black, daughter of William Black & Mary Lutton, is the 9 year old Annie in 1901 (19 year old Ann in 1911)
Itís possible that Minnie is Mary Florence/Lutton Black. If her mother Mary died when she was born then possibly the registration of her birth was overlooked.

Now gaffy has found Maud  ;D

Thanks aghadowey! I now think you may be correct. If Mary / Minnie was born just before her mother Mary BLACK nee LUTTON died, it might explain why there is no birth record. It would also perhaps explain the reference to Lutton on the 1918 birth record for her son William Meredith HAUGHEY (junior). What is also interesting is that a 'Maggie McNee' registered the birth. I had not put any significance on this until reading some of the other posts on this thread - now this may be Margaret BLACK.  Thanks again! Paul!!
Looking For:
Darwen - Richardson / Walsh / Harwood
Middlesbrough - Hunter / O'Lone
Belfast - Haughey / Stewart / Henderson / Black
Norfolk - Hunter / Langley
Boyle - Harney

Offline nosdrahcir

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 15:51 BST (UK) »
Doesn't help sort out origins for Minnie and the other two girls but a few points.

Son James Black born Mar.1865 then another son born 6 months later in Dec.1865. Quite possibly the child was premature and died shortly after.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03588/2322855.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03511/2291412.pdf (unknown)

Two daughters born in 1870 & 1872- I can't see any matching deaths for these two and it's possible that they survived (either would be old enough to be mother of Annie, Minnie, Maud).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03338/2223625.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03252/2191687.pdf

Afternoon again aghadowey!  Can I draw on your experience regarding the two unnamed daughters? Rightly or wrongly, I had assumed that in cases where no first name was given - on the birth record - then that signified a death at birth or a stillbirth. But your comments - and those of others here - would suggest this is not so and that the child might have lived.

Was it common for births to be registered before the parents had decided on a name or by someone who did not know what name had been chosen? If so is there any way to discover what name had been given (when the Census is not an option)?

Thanks Paul!!
Looking For:
Darwen - Richardson / Walsh / Harwood
Middlesbrough - Hunter / O'Lone
Belfast - Haughey / Stewart / Henderson / Black
Norfolk - Hunter / Langley
Boyle - Harney

Offline gaffy

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 16:03 BST (UK) »

... Incidentally, when Maude married a William Hurst in Belfast in 1929, she did so as Maude Maxwell, and gave her father as William Maxwell (which isn't consistent with the 1896 birth registration), and his occupation as fitter (which is consistent with the 1896 birth registration).  Isabella McNee was one of the witnesses.


Edited to add:  This looks like a McNee grave: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qy0/


Some more supporting material to follow up the above. 

Further to the grave record for Margaret McNee who died on 21 October 1954, the Belfast Telegraph of the following day carried a death notice that mentioned that Margaret, of 3 Torrens Road, was the mother of 'Mrs. Hurst'.

Fast forward, and the Belfast Telegraph of 23 August 1973 carried death notices for a Sarah Jane (Jean/Jeannie) McNee, which included mentions of sister 'Isabella McNee, 3 Torrens Road' and sister 'Maud Hurst'.

(Perhaps Sarah Jane the 5 year old in house 6 in Ballynure Street in the 1911 census return posted at reply #22)?

'Mrs. Hurst' was also mentioned in the death notices for John McNee in 1940.



Offline nosdrahcir

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 17:15 BST (UK) »

... Incidentally, when Maude married a William Hurst in Belfast in 1929, she did so as Maude Maxwell, and gave her father as William Maxwell (which isn't consistent with the 1896 birth registration), and his occupation as fitter (which is consistent with the 1896 birth registration).  Isabella McNee was one of the witnesses.


Edited to add:  This looks like a McNee grave: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qy0/


Some more supporting material to follow up the above. 

Further to the grave record for Margaret McNee who died on 21 October 1954, the Belfast Telegraph of the following day carried a death notice that mentioned that Margaret, of 3 Torrens Road, was the mother of 'Mrs. Hurst'.

Fast forward, and the Belfast Telegraph of 23 August 1973 carried death notices for a Sarah Jane (Jean/Jeannie) McNee, which included mentions of sister 'Isabella McNee, 3 Torrens Road' and sister 'Maud Hurst'.

(Perhaps Sarah Jane the 5 year old in house 6 in Ballynure Street in the 1911 census return posted at reply #22)?

'Mrs. Hurst' was also mentioned in the death notices for John McNee in 1940.

Thanks gaffy!

I think you are correct regarding this McNee grave in the Glenalina Extension. The Margaretta May McNee died 1916 is the 7 year old on the Census born 1903.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1903/01871/1728670.pdf

And the Isobel is almost certainly the 9 year old daughter Isabella! Paul!!
Looking For:
Darwen - Richardson / Walsh / Harwood
Middlesbrough - Hunter / O'Lone
Belfast - Haughey / Stewart / Henderson / Black
Norfolk - Hunter / Langley
Boyle - Harney

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 20:33 BST (UK) »
Afternoon again aghadowey!  Can I draw on your experience regarding the two unnamed daughters? Rightly or wrongly, I had assumed that in cases where no first name was given - on the birth record - then that signified a death at birth or a stillbirth. But your comments - and those of others here - would suggest this is not so and that the child might have lived.
Was it common for births to be registered before the parents had decided on a name or by someone who did not know what name had been chosen? If so is there any way to discover what name had been given (when the Census is not an option)?

It wasn't that uncommon in those days to register a child without Christian name(s). Sometimes the child's name will later be added on the right-hand column. Often registrations done by hospital staff don't include Christian names.
Not sure what the current situation regarding registering births is but in the early 1990s it was possible, but strongly discouraged, to register without a name. We had a first name chosen for our eldest but hadn't decided on middle one but when I asked registrar at the hospital she was horrified and said to wait and do it later in the Registry Office.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 21:48 BST (UK) »
There's another burial in same plot as James Black leads to another connection.
Margaret Richardson born & died 1926 so birth and death registrations won't be online but address is 17 Ballynure St.
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=6851.2946

In 1932 directory- https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bcomplete1932.htm
#11 John McNee, carpenter and #17 D. Richardson, labourer
#8 is a Samuel Black, soldier (any connection?)

1924 much the same- https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bcomplete1924_1.htm
except #11 is Wm McNee, carpenter

1939- https://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/bcomplete1939.htm
#17 James Richardson, labourer

Which of course brings us to the marriage of Annie (Black) Sillers to James Richardson-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09247/5347101.pdf
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline jonw65

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 22:33 BST (UK) »
Re continuing Lutton connection?
A will, proved 23 August 1956
Harriette Anne Lutton of Weymouth Massachusetts USA and of 327 Oldpark Road Belfast widow
died 24 June 1954 at 51 Lisburn Road Belfast
Probate Belfast 23 August to Minnie Haughey widow
and Bertrand Dawson Cotton solicitor.

Though I don't think our Minnie Haughey was widowed until 1958.
Anyway, there is a passenger record.
Arriving 1 Oct 1920 in New York, on the Baltic, from Liverpool (departed 22 Sep)
Joseph Lutton 53 Engineer
Harriett Lutton 44 Housewife
Last residence Belfast
Relative Niece, Mrs. Richardson, 3 Ballyclare Street, Belfast

Their final destination was Weymouth Massachusetts.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9PT-K979-R?i=578

With more information on the next image!

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 22:44 BST (UK) »
Don't think this has been found yet  :o

James Black born 30 Aug.1896 at 7 Ballyclare St.- parents William Black (fireman) & Sarah McAnally-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02164/1820114.pdf
Informant was a Jane McAnally of 7 Ballyclare St.- perhaps Sarah's mother?
Sadly the child died 15 months later- father William Black (fireman) but family not living 2 Ballyclare St.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1897/05850/4657708.pdf

Not enough information here to be sure this is another child-
https://dof.belfastcity.gov.uk/burialsearch/BurialRecordDetails.aspx?RecordID=7739.8733  stillborn child fo Wm & Sarah Black, 48 Bond St., buried 13 Dec.1898 Belfast City Cemetery- Public Ground
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!