Author Topic: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?  (Read 713 times)

Offline jonw65

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #18 on: Monday 20 September 21 20:50 BST (UK) »
The only Lutton in the tree is Mary LUTTON, first wife of William BLACK but she died before Minnie would have been born

Not necessarily. Ages of Minnie/Mary in 1901 and 1911 census are 7 and 17.
Minnie age 23 on marriage on 2 April 1917
You say there is a birth date given later of 4 September 1895, which would make her two years younger than that. A more likely year would be 1893.

Cause of death of Mary Black, 4 October 1893,  Spreading Septic Phlebitis, 21 days. Diarrhoea.

Death/Funeral notice for Minnie Florence Haughey,  Belfast Telegraph, 29 Sep 1971.
Buried at Carnmoney Cemetery (East)
Died 28 Sep 1971. Age 78
https://antrimandnewtownabbey.gov.uk/residents/cemeteries/

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #19 on: Monday 20 September 21 22:10 BST (UK) »
Doesn't help sort out origins for Minnie and the other two girls but a few points.

Son James Black born Mar.1865 then another son born 6 months later in Dec.1865. Quite possibly the child was premature and died shortly after.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03588/2322855.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1866/03511/2291412.pdf (unknown)

Two daughters born in 1870 & 1872- I can't see any matching deaths for these two and it's possible that they survived (either would be old enough to be mother of Annie, Minnie, Maud).
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1870/03338/2223625.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03252/2191687.pdf
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline gaffy

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #20 on: Monday 20 September 21 23:07 BST (UK) »
To corroborate the previous posts regarding Annie Black being the daughter of William Black and Mary Lutton...
 
Northern Whig, 26 May 1917: THE RANK AND FILE ... Lance Corporal Thomas Sillars, son of Mr. John Sillars, 60, Dover Street, Belfast, and husband of Mrs. Sillars, 3, Ballyclare Street.

Thomas 'Sellars' married Annie Black in May Street Presbyterian Church on 20 September 1915, the bride's father was recorded as William Black, block printer:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1915/09817/5564732.pdf

"Husband of Mrs. A. Sillars, of 3, Ballyclare St., Belfast.":
https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/544710/T%20SILLARS/

Annie remarried on 26 January 1920, to a James Richardson, again her father's details were given as William Black, block printer:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1920/09247/5347101.pdf



Offline gaffy

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 00:16 BST (UK) »
Just throwing the following birth into the mix, as a possibility for 'Maud Black' in the 1901 census, I haven't yet found a marriage for the parents...

Maude Maxwell, born at 3 Ballyclare Street on 26 June 1896, parents given as Samuel Maxwell of that address and Margaret Black, Rose Ann Black - also of that address - was the informant:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02164/1820082.pdf


Offline gaffy

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 02:34 BST (UK) »

Just throwing the following birth into the mix, as a possibility for 'Maud Black' in the 1901 census, I haven't yet found a marriage for the parents...

Maude Maxwell, born at 3 Ballyclare Street on 26 June 1896, parents given as Samuel Maxwell of that address and Margaret Black, Rose Ann Black - also of that address - was the informant:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1896/02164/1820082.pdf


Still couldn't find a marriage for Samuel Maxwell and Margaret Black, or any other children for them, so I went looking for a marriage for Margaret Black (to anybody) in the years immediately after that 1896 birth of Maude Maxwell and found the following marriage in Cliftonville Presbyterian Church on 31 October 1900 to a widowed carpenter called John McNee - Margaret is recorded as a spinster, the daughter of James Black a mill-wright:
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1900/10360/5771491.pdf

BTW, note the above marriage witnesses - we've had the Harvey surname before (at reply #3 and reply #10), in relation to William Harvey marrying James Black's daughter Sarah Jane in 1920. I haven't yet found a birth for Margaret (ie. to James and Rose Ann), but the combination of the father's details and the witness names in the above 1900 marriage are persuasive that she was indeed another of their children.

Anyhow, below are John and Margaret McNee 5 months after their marriage in the 1901 census, John's mother is in the household, as is a daughter Ellen (presumably from his previous marriage), Margaret's age is 28:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Shankhill/Upper_Glenfarne_Street/950530/

The couple had their first child Isabella in 1902, but lo and behold, by the time of the 1911 census, an older daughter "Maude McNee" has miraculously appeared:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Clifton/Ballynure_Street/144239/

So to me it looks like the 4 year old grand child Maud Black in the 1901 census return for house 1 in Ballyclare Street, may be the illegitimate child of James Black's daughter Margaret (the child registered as Maude Maxwell, father Samuel Maxwell), who then appeared back with her married mother as Maude McNee in the 1911 census return for house 6 in Ballynure Street.

Incidentally, when Maude married a William Hurst in Belfast in 1929, she did so as Maude Maxwell, and gave her father as William Maxwell (which isn't consistent with the 1896 birth registration), and his occupation as fitter (which is consistent with the 1896 birth registration).  Isabella McNee was one of the witnesses.


Edited to add:  This looks like a McNee grave: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01qy0/


Offline jonw65

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 08:58 BST (UK) »
This might lead somewhere!
Son William Haughey born 1918
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1919/01258/1522487.pdf

Informant Maggie McNee of 11 Ballynure St, present at birth :)
On age Margaret could be the unnamed female born 30 April 1872, posted by aghadowey in Reply #19

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 09:12 BST (UK) »
Had this ready to post last night but wasn't online-
I think that Ann Victoria Black, daughter of William Black & Mary Lutton, is the 9 year old Annie in 1901 (19 year old Ann in 1911)
Itís possible that Minnie is Mary Florence/Lutton Black. If her mother Mary died when she was born then possibly the registration of her birth was overlooked.

Now gaffy has found Maud  ;D
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline nosdrahcir

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 11:35 BST (UK) »
Morning everyone! Just want to say thank you for all the suggestions and comments so far! I will go through them all and reply but it might take a day or so. I do think progress is being made with Annie, Minnie and Maud so thank you. Some posts have coincidentally opened up completely new lines of investigation for other family members and have potentially solved a couple of 'mysteries' so there is a lot I really need to take a serious look at. Thanks again, Paul!!
Looking For:
Darwen - Richardson / Walsh / Harwood
Middlesbrough - Hunter / O'Lone
Belfast - Haughey / Stewart / Henderson / Black
Norfolk - Hunter / Langley
Boyle - Harney

Offline nosdrahcir

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Re: Minnie Florence BLACK of Ballyclare Street - date of birth and parents?
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 21 September 21 14:04 BST (UK) »
The only Lutton in the tree is Mary LUTTON, first wife of William BLACK but she died before Minnie would have been born

Not necessarily. Ages of Minnie/Mary in 1901 and 1911 census are 7 and 17.
Minnie age 23 on marriage on 2 April 1917
You say there is a birth date given later of 4 September 1895, which would make her two years younger than that. A more likely year would be 1893.

Cause of death of Mary Black, 4 October 1893,  Spreading Septic Phlebitis, 21 days. Diarrhoea.

Death/Funeral notice for Minnie Florence Haughey,  Belfast Telegraph, 29 Sep 1971.
Buried at Carnmoney Cemetery (East)
Died 28 Sep 1971. Age 78
https://antrimandnewtownabbey.gov.uk/residents/cemeteries/

Afternoon jonw65! Thanks for this! I think you may be on the right track and somehow I have ages / birth years confused. If Mary / Minnie was born 04 Sep 1893 (not 1895) and her mother Mary LAMONT died a month later, that might explain why Annie & Minnie were with their Grandfather in the 1901 Census. But, where were William and his new wife, Sarah?

Also, the cemetery link for Minnie is correct. I had no idea this resource existed, so huge thanks for mentioning it. My wife was not allowed to attend her Nan's funeral so we did not know where they were buried until now! The others in the same plot are Minnie's husband, William Meredith HAUGHEY and - I think - her daughter, Norma, who married a US serviceman after the war and emigrated to the US. I had lost track of her after she divorced him in 1955 but it looks like she remarried to a Mr Luttnan / Luttmann and then came back to NI either before or after she died. The US Entry card mentioned in the very first post was to visit the Luttmann family so that ties in! Many thanks for enabling this new line of investigation! Paul!!   
Looking For:
Darwen - Richardson / Walsh / Harwood
Middlesbrough - Hunter / O'Lone
Belfast - Haughey / Stewart / Henderson / Black
Norfolk - Hunter / Langley
Boyle - Harney