Author Topic: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales  (Read 7831 times)

Offline Talacharn

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Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« on: Tuesday 21 September 21 21:51 BST (UK) »
I am interested in the Williams family of travellers that settled in and worked around Wales. Originally, they were Scamps, mainly from Devon. There is an oral tree on Romany Genes, but based upon an archive held by Liverpool University. http://www.romanygenes.com/scamp-family/4528685510

It is clear from that list, both Nelson and Samson Williams and Samsonís children were Scamps, that changed their name in moving to Wales. On census records, Samson claims to have been born in Cwmaman 1846-9. I cannot find a baptism or registration for him and have looked for Scamp and Williams. There seems to be at least 2 or 3 Scamp families moving into Wales in the 1830-40s. Other Scamps families were in the Kent area, with Romany Genes giving no further information as to when or where they were born, who they married (formally, or informally) and the family structures. Most of their census records are from Kent. Traveller families tended to be large, while I can only find Nelson and a few who died young. Does anyone have information about the Scamps, especially if they moved to Wales?

Offline Darnity

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 25 September 21 10:11 BST (UK) »
Wrong part of the country but Roger Baker's Family Tree of Samson and Celia SCAMP has Martha d/o John SCAMP (bp Woodnesborough 1825 s/o John SCAMP and Grace LEE) and Susannah MCCARTHY marrying Alexander WILLIAMS and lists ten children for Martha and Alexander from c1888 to the early years of the C20th in the Canterbury area.

Might be worth looking at these Williams to see if they give any useful clues.
Gypsy DRAPERs, children of Billy and Mary - Ellen,Darnity,Spencer,Billy Jnr,Kisby,Ellick
Descendants of Fred and Esther (Garrett) WHITLOCK - Wavendon, Woburn Sands area
Descendants of George and Barbara (Willis) SUTTON - Earls Barton and Nether Heyford
BISSELL - Hanslope, New Bradwell, Bucks and Aston, Birmingham area
Lavinia DRAPER died 1840 Cranfield
Gypsies in the Bow Brickhill and Beds/Bucks border areas

Offline trish1120

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 25 September 21 12:08 BST (UK) »
Is this Nelson?

Bapt
25 Dec 1829, St Mary, Portskewett, Monmouthshire
HORATIO NELSON Scamp
Parents THOMAS WILLIAMS and CLEVANEY Scamp
(FreeREG)

1812 Bapt on there also Ilfracombe, Devon, for a Thomas Williams Scamp, Parents John Williams Scamp and Mary
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline osprey

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 25 September 21 15:14 BST (UK) »
the parish register for the 1829 baptism, mother's name looks more like Clevancy. The abode is noted as Feltham, Middlesex and occupation of Thomas as tinker.

Then there's a burial in Defynnog, Breconshire 4 Nov 1845 for Clivancy Scamp 52 of Hertfordshire.

Possible baptism in Essendon, Hertfordshire 22 July 1792 Robert & Clavancy, twins of Samuel & Hannah Lee, Gipsies.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb


Offline Br1gau

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 25 September 21 15:24 BST (UK) »
The Welsh newspapers online show a William Scamp in Newport 1838, later Samuel and Nelson Williams.  There are more entries Ė search for each name enclosed by inverted commas.

Monmouthshire Merlin 17 Nov 1838 page 3, column 5
William Scamp Newport Police added: sent down for 2 months
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3392810/3392813/31/

The Welshman 2 July 1875 page 6, column 4
Under the heading Llandilo, Petty Sessions, half way down column
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/4355458/4355464/29/

South Wales Daily News 2 May 1878 page 3 column5 - Pretending to be a Government Inspector (Nelson and Samuel) https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3506426/3506429/39/

Offline osprey

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 25 September 21 15:59 BST (UK) »
report of Nelson's funeral in 1906

https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3348269/3348274/105/

The burial register gives his age as 60 so not an octogenarian!
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 25 September 21 16:43 BST (UK) »
there's a later baptism in Ilfracombe to John Williams Scamp & Mary, a daughter Harriet baptised 25 July 1820, John noted as a mariner.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N54M-YQN

Thomas Williams Scamp married Harriet Geen, widow 3 Sep 1836 in Ilfracombe.

1851 census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGJD-VV7

Early mention of Scamp name
Burial Llantilio Pertholey, Mon, 12 Nov 1755 Delana Scamp, a strouler(?)
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Talacharn

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 25 September 21 16:49 BST (UK) »
Thanks All,
Darnity, I will look at the Williams marriages and also came across another Scamp/Williams marriage in Devon that I need to investigate.

trish1120 and Osprey, I am aware of Nelsonís baptism and Thomas Williams Scamp as that is the family I want to know more about. The mother is Clevancy Lee, who died at Defynnog near Brecon. The marriage is listed in Eric Trudgillís book. Did he continue fathering children with another wife?

I am aware of the funeral, but travellers did not tell the truth, certainly not about their age. There is some confusion, as being an octogenarian fits with the 1829 baptism, but on the oral list, there are 2 called Nelson, possibly father and son. His wife died a few years earlier, which may offer an age. I think she died in Bridgend, but is buried in Swansea and Nelson was buried with her. On census records, he tended not to answer and once gave her name as Nelson also, but I think it was Elizabeth.

Br1gau, I have read many of the articles, but had not seen the one of William Scamp, or Nelson and the bacon. Nelson and Samson are the family I am looking at, as both were Scamps; Nelson baptised as a Scamp, and Samson I have not found. William Scamp I am also aware of, but that was the first mention of him being in Wales, so thanks.

Around that time, there are 3/4 Scamp families in or around Wales from single baptism records, of which some died very young. Some seem to be travelling into Wales from a base in Bristol. I am struggling to find any evidence after that, as Scamp or Williams.

Samson Williams married Gravalina Lee. He and the children are listed on the Scamp oral list of the University of Liverpool. So is Nelson. But there are many on that list, who seem to be brothers and sisters, that I cannot find evidence of.

Offline osprey

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Re: Scamp/Williams Family in Wales
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 25 September 21 17:00 BST (UK) »
there's a baptism 24 Jan 1847 in Maesteg for Sylvester son of Samuel & Bennah Scamp
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1B3-J8Z

Haven't found the register for the baptism but the baby died and his burial 7 Feb in Cadoxton juxta Neath notes abode as 'temporary tent in this parish'
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb