William fowlie simpson carr POW Burma mystery

[ryan37]

Hi folks looking for help


Researching my grandfathers brother

William fowlie simpson carr , he sadly died as a POW in Japanese hands

He was a Gordon highlander

In
March 1942 it was in a newspaper that soldiers including William were missing in Malaya after a fall in Singapore

On December 28th 1943 in a local paper-
“Prisoner of japs” apologies if this isn’t what I should be typing
“ first news in two years “

Stating that after an anxious wait

Mentions William carr is safe and well in a Japanese prison camp in Malaya


Next is what I can’t understand


I have the official death Certs , 2 of them , which

Are dated

First one is dated 12-12-45

Mentions

No 830999 pte William carr - Gordon highlanders
Died at tambaya hospital , Burma 27-9-43

Whilst a prisoner of war in Japanese hands



Next one is dated

26th March 1946
No 830999 pte William carr
Gordon highlanders

Died in Burma 27-9-43

Whilst serving in the Indian theatre of war

This cert is accompanied with a letter

Dear madam

William carr - deceased

I enclose confirmation which I have now received from
Aberdeen . I also enclose receipt for fees, certificate of death and letter from war office addressed to you


What I can’t understand is why news came home and printed in newspaper that he was safe and well , but really he was already deceased , according to the death Certs -

Then I can’t work out why - their are 2 deaths Certs with slightly different info
Dated about 4 months apart

I also
Found a record on ancestry that he died of beri beri


Can anyone help me understand what’s going on here and does anyone know of where to find any more information about prisoners of war and there movements , would like to know what his duties were etc


Thanks

Ryan

[Annie65115]

You may already know this, but beri beri is a disease of dietary insufficiency, specifically of thiamine (one of the B vitamins). Processed rice contains very little thiamine and if anyone has to live on rice alone, beri beri is a likely result. (Not to mention that the quantities were almost certainly grossly inadequate too).

Regarding the confusion in dates, I suspect it probably was simply down to the confusion and misinformation that war generates.

Have you looked on the Red Cross site regarding POW info?

[Kiltpin]

I think, Ryan, that there were a combination of factors which blended together to make this story. 

1- There was a war on.   

2- There were no channels of communication (either direct or indirect) with the Japanese. 

3- The Japanese people did not and would not speak English. 

4- Any information coming back to a news-hungry press would have taken months, if not years. A slow troop transport zig-zaging to avoid the U boats and then a lengthy debrief. A fleeting glance - seeing someone "alive and well" (when they last saw him) - Beri-beri can come on suddenly due to a radical change in diet (rice). 

5- The Press would put a positive spin on any news at that time and "fill in the gaps" if they had to. 

Putting it all together, it is easy to see how misinformation could be passed on. 

Regards 

Chas

[Gibel]

 Could it be that the first death certificate was issued as soon as the relevant people knew in the post war chaos that he was dead and the second  was issued around the time he was formally buried in the CWGC cemetery?

I looked at a distant relative who died in the same country on the CWGC site and on his forms there is a date in late 1945 listing his date of death in 1943 and then a date in 1946 listing his reburial into the CWGC graveyard.

[AllanUK]

There are numerous records held by the National Archives that mention William.

Ref No. WO 361/2234 -- mentions that William was a Prisoner of War and part of the 'F' and 'H' Forces working on the Thailand to Burma Railway. It records that he died at TAMBAYA, Burma on the 27 September 1943. Cause of death was BERI-BERI

Ref No. WO 361/2201 -- records that William was part of 'F' Force Working Party on the infamous death railway. This also shows his date of death as 27 September 1943

A very quick look at the other records that mention him reveal that he was taken prisoner on the 15 February 1942 and held at the infamous CHANGI Prison in Singapore.

Ref No. WO 361/241 -- records that he died from BERI-BERI and COLITIS. This is noted as being a 'certified true copy of translated Japanese records'

[ShaunJ]

Ref No. WO 361/241 -- records that he died from BERI-BERI and COLITIS. This is noted as being a 'certified true copy of translated Japanese records'

That one also records that he was cremated.

[ryan37]

Thank you all so much for the detailed explanations of why the chain of events were muddled

I really appreciate your time
Taken to explain to me , I’m very fortunate to receive such good feedback


I also thank everyone who have added their input and records

This is very very interesting to me and Williams brother ( my grandfather) is still living aged 89, he spoke of him a lot
Before and unfortunately he’s now very ill and can’t remember much ,

A new question I thought of Aswell was

At the cwgc it shows and tells us where he was buried ,

Is that more of a memorial place or , if he was cremated would have the ashes be buried and his name placed nearby?

Here is a newspaper cutting I found among a box of Williams mothers belongings

So sad

Thanks everyone

[ShaunJ]

The CWGC records do show that his remains are buried at Thanbyuzayat War Cemetery (Plot B6, Row L, Grave 3), having been transferred from Tambaya cemetery 9, and reinterred in January 1946.   

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/2089144/WILLIAM%20CARR/#&gid=2&pid=1

[Little Nell]

My great-uncle was also captured at the fall of Singapore.  Fortunately he came home, but he was not posted as a POW until July 1943. 

He was called up very early in the war and was in the Royal Corps of Signals.  His family were relieved when he was posted to Singapore, they thought he would be safe and 'out of the way' there.  He sent back photos of him and his fellow recruits taken in Singapore until November 1941.  His mother kept them in what must have been a very precious album.  He was her youngest child.  Sadly his father died before knowing that his son was a prisoner.

Nell