Common names like Smith

[cuffie81]

Another Joseph Smith publican https://pubwiki.co.uk/Warwickshire/BirminghamR/RedHouse.shtml

I think this one is too old.

GRO references:
1886 Q4 Death - Joseph Smith; age 72 (born c1814); Birmingham; 06D; 95
1892 Q2 Death - Mary Smith; age 78 (born c1814); Birmingham; 06D; 81


Censuses:
1861 Rose Inn, 49, Great Russell Street, Birmingham
Joseph and Mary
Ref RG09; Piece 2163; Folio 20; Page 33; Schedule 188

1871 348, New John Street, West, Birmingham
Joseph and Mary
Ref RG10; Piece 3126; Folio 63; Page 13; Schedule 75

1881 348, New John Street, West, Birmingham
Joseph and Mary
Ref RG11; Piece 2999; Folio 22; Page 37; Schedule 194

1891 348, New John Street, West, Birmingham
Mary, widowed
Ref RG12; Piece 2391; Folio 119; Page 33; Schedule 193

(Sorry, can't provide links to FamilySearch records as FS appears to have taken it's ball home in a sulk).

Probate index:
Joseph Smith
late of the "Red House" Inn New John Street West Birmingham
licensed victualler and maltster
died 25 Dec 1886
at the "Red House"
Admin 21 Feb 1887
granted to Mary Smith of the "Red House", widow the relict
Estate: £33,307
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=smith&yearOfDeath=1887&page=54#calendar


Probate index:
Mary Smith
of the "Red House" inn New John Street West Birmingham
widow
died 08 May 1892
Probate
to James Alfred Foster, chemist
and Edgar Williams, officer of excise
Effects £17,469
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=smith&yearOfDeath=1892&page=24#calendar


Birmingham Daily Post
29 Dec 1886
page 8
Deaths
Smith
- On the 25th inst.,
- in his 73rd year,
- Joseph Smith,
- of the Red House, 348, New John Street West
- deeply lamented


Birmingham Daily Post
14 May 1892
page 6
Deaths
Smith
- on the 8th inst.,
- at The Red House, 348, New John Street West, of this city,
- aged 79,
- Mary Smith,
- end her was peace


There are number of newspaper items that link Joseph to the Rose Inn/Tavern throughout the 1850s but I couldn't find a census reference for him.

[Hillhurst]

I have nothing on Harry’s first marriage. We’re fairly sure there was a son born around 1910-1915 but no name for son or wife.

That's a shame. Would be interesting to see the father details on Harry's first marriage record (if there was one), just to compare to the 1941 marriage.

Speaking of which, what are the witness names on the 1941 marriage cert? Anyone named Smith?

UPDATE: Hurray! A 1928 mention for Harry Smith -- and he's at 23 Buxton Rd, Erdington. Sorry, I can only offer the OCR excerpt.

Birmingham Daily Gazette
Monday 30 April 1928 - Page 5
"Aston. received scalp wounds and other head injuries, and was detained for some hours at the General Hospital. Harry Smith, aged 48, of 23, Buxton Road, Erdington, sustained bruises to the hip and back, and Leonard Harrison,' aged 219, Pool Farm-road. Acock's ..."

[Dundee]

However, Marys first child with first husband Alfred Wilson was born 1909. Reginald was born in 1921. We assumed Alfred died/missing in WW1 but then we found out through records that Reginalds sister Mollie born 1923 was registered to Alfred, not Harry. The subsequent 2 children were registered to Harry and I believe Mollie was brought up as a Smith, although registered Wilson.

Do you have copies of any of the birth certificates and is a father named on any of them? 

This is how the birth registrations are indexed.

Births Mar 1935

Smith, Reginald L (Allman)    Birmingham    6d   563    
Wilson, Reginald L (Allman)    Birmingham    6d   563

Births Mar 1921

Smith, Reginald L (Allman) Birmingham    6D   See M'35
Wilson, Reginald L (Allman) King's N.    6d   119 See M/35   
Wilson, Reginald L (Allman)    Birmingham   See M/35   

GRO

WILSON, REGINALD  LAWRENCE (ALLMAN)     
GRO Reference: 1921  M Quarter in KINGS NORTON  Volume 06D  Page 119  Occasional Copy: A

I think Reginald's birth was originally registered in the district of King's Norton in 1921 with no father named and mother named as Mary WILSON formerly ALLMAN as that was her name at the time, then re-registered/altered in 1935 to add a father.

Births Jun 1923

Wilson, Mollie D   (Allman) Kings N   6d   102

I think this one would not name a father and the mother would be named Mary WILSON formerly ALLMAN as that was her name at the time

Births Dec 1925

Smith, Ronald W  (Allman)    Birmingham N.    6d   862    
Wilson, Ronald W (Allman)    Birmingham N.    6d   862

Births Jun 1929

Smith, Hazel B   (Allman) Birmingham N.    6d   905    
Wilson, Hazel B    (Allman) Birmingham N.    6d   905

These two above might name a father with the mother named as Mary WILSON formerly ALLMAN as that was her name at the time.

You would need to see the originals of these certs to know exactly what they do say, but it seems likely that all children from Reginald onwards were fathered by Harry SMITH.

Note:  All births referred to are now deceased.

Debra 

[danieloftyne]

Don't give up just yet I have in my family and few browns mixed in with copious amounts of joneses I can't keep up with them sometimes😆😆

[Melonza]

Oh wow! I only went offline for a day or two and you wonderful people have sent all this information. How exciting! Thank you!

Re Red House: I had looked up this one before and decided that Joseph and Mary were too old to be the right Joseph. It’s filed away though just in case. Harry was born 1880 and that Joseph was around mid 60s if I recall.

Re Reginald birth: we have a certificate dated 1935 and so that makes sense about them updating the registration. There is a note on the side that says previously registered Feb 1921. Interesting that she didn’t register Harry or Alfred. I’ll have to see if I can get Mollies as well as she is registered to Alfred but born two years after Reginald. The family always commented on how she didn’t look like the other kids. Reginald was born at 5 Orchard Rd Balsall Heath, but by 1935 when the birth reg was updated Harry and Mary were living at 23 Buxton Road.

Re Birmingham Gazette: how interesting. I’ll have to see if I can find more/pay to access that! Thank you! Interesting as that’s in the middle between Reginald being born and Harry and Mary registered together at Buxton Rd on 1939 reg. Wondering what potential dramas may have gone on!

Re Harry Mary marriage certificate - withnesses are L E Harrison and Norah B Browning

Thank you all so much! I’m blown away by this.

[Melonza]

I found the newspaper article - Harry was in his work van and was hit by a motor car. I pieced together that he worked for the City of Birmingham Corporation Electric Supply Department.
Another part of the jigsaw! Thank you again!

[Melonza]

Guess what else I just pieced together?!
The article mentioned a Leonard Harrison who was also injured and it read as if he was in the works van with Harry.

L E Harrison was one of the witnesses to Harry and Mary’s marriage!
So exciting!