Author Topic: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817  (Read 356 times)

Offline Dulciebun

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 05 October 21 20:16 BST (UK) »
Itís odd isnít it, that it is so specifically titled and yet not referenced in the bibliography

Agreed.
But it seems to be a valuable historical document and - fingers crossed - there's a copy of it somewhere.
The journal which published Tom Malcolmson's article (1999) seems to be managed by the "Canadian Nautical Research Society".  I wonder how we might contact them, to ask for some assistance; I'm guessing they're probably in Canada?

D
Burgi (Zurich, Wintertur)
Pratt (Birmingham 1900s)

Offline Hillhurst

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 05 October 21 20:20 BST (UK) »
Could it be this (see Note #6) --

6. "The muster table, "Naval Establishment on Lake Ontario Upper Canada Commencing the 9 May 1813 and Including the 30 April 1814 Wages paid in Canada from the Original Entries to All but Those who have Notations against their Names or Discharged with Tickets Provisions Supplied Agreeable to the Custom of the Army from the Different Commissioners, Post to the Date of Their Appearance in the Ships Expressed Opposite Their Respective Names," may be found in Great Britain, Public Record Office (PRO), Admiralty (ADM) 37/5000"

So at TNA now (ADM 37/5000). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C780749

Online mckha489

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 05 October 21 20:31 BST (UK) »
Red boxed!  Yes I agree. Think that must be it.

Some colour here for you Dulciebun.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-148095
Side tracked to a friendís very interesting Norfolk families. MORGAN, PRATT, HORNOR, SUCKLING, GLEANE etc. And in London DOWNES, du CROZ, MORGAN (same MORGANs as the Norwich lot)


Offline Hillhurst

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Offline Dulciebun

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 06 October 21 08:26 BST (UK) »
Could it be this (see Note #6) --

6. "The muster table, "Naval Establishment on Lake Ontario Upper Canada Commencing the 9 May 1813 and Including the 30 April 1814 Wages paid in Canada from the Original Entries to All but Those who have Notations against their Names or Discharged with Tickets Provisions Supplied Agreeable to the Custom of the Army from the Different Commissioners, Post to the Date of Their Appearance in the Ships Expressed Opposite Their Respective Names," may be found in Great Britain, Public Record Office (PRO), Admiralty (ADM) 37/5000"

So at TNA now (ADM 37/5000). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C780749

Hillhurst
This definitely sounds like the right document. Thank you.
With any luck the man I seek will be on the list (unless he was brought in to the action slightly later)... it's a very good bet, anyway.

TNA indicates that it can supply a copy [but very busy right now, long wait, fairly high fee].

Curiously the later pay books, particular to each Great Lake, do seem to be available through Ancestry etc, but not this original list of all the participating men & ships (unless I haven't searched for the right thing).

I'm wondering if any researcher already has a copy of this first muster table from May 1813, given how important a text it is, in this context. Any writer or researcher would surely have consulted it, quoted from it...

How does one search for publications (PhDs? historians' articles? etc) which focus on these battles in the Great Lakes?

D
Burgi (Zurich, Wintertur)
Pratt (Birmingham 1900s)

Offline Dulciebun

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 06 October 21 08:32 BST (UK) »
Red boxed!  Yes I agree. Think that must be it.

Some colour here for you Dulciebun.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-148095

mckha489
A painting! Wow!
How thankful we are to the artists who created these detailed images, before we possessed cameras.

Now this is a brilliant painting to show me, because it includes the ship - Niag[a]ra - my man was known to be on, before he was transferred to some of the new ships they built in Canada, for the purpose.

Very grateful, D

Burgi (Zurich, Wintertur)
Pratt (Birmingham 1900s)

Offline Dulciebun

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 06 October 21 11:49 BST (UK) »
Could it be this (see Note #6) --

6. "The muster table, "Naval Establishment on Lake Ontario Upper Canada Commencing the 9 May 1813 and Including the 30 April 1814 Wages paid in Canada from the Original Entries to All but Those who have Notations against their Names or Discharged with Tickets Provisions Supplied Agreeable to the Custom of the Army from the Different Commissioners, Post to the Date of Their Appearance in the Ships Expressed Opposite Their Respective Names," may be found in Great Britain, Public Record Office (PRO), Admiralty (ADM) 37/5000"

So at TNA now (ADM 37/5000). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C780749

Hillhurst
This definitely sounds like the right document. Thank you.
With any luck the man I seek will be on the list (unless he was brought in to the action slightly later)... it's a very good bet, anyway.

TNA indicates that it can supply a copy [but very busy right now, long wait, fairly high fee].

Curiously the later pay books, particular to each Great Lake, do seem to be available through Ancestry etc, but not this original list of all the participating men & ships (unless I haven't searched for the right thing).

I'm wondering if any researcher already has a copy of this first muster table from May 1813, given how important a text it is, in this context. Any writer or researcher would surely have consulted it, quoted from it...

How does one search for publications (PhDs? historians' articles? etc) which focus on these battles in the Great Lakes?

D

UPDATE
I've located a copy of the Muster Table, great.
However (and there's always a catch), the man I seek was transferred into this service in early 1814 when his Captain* volunteered the whole crew to help out. So there are no accompanying genealogical details, only the name of the ship, which was HMS FANTOME.

[Ship's Captain, 1814, was Henry Kent b. about 1790 Glasgow.]

So, new question!
How do we find RN crew-lists from 1810 - 1813 (if they exist)?
Indeed, how do we find any Royal Navy records of service for men in the early 19th century?

D
Burgi (Zurich, Wintertur)
Pratt (Birmingham 1900s)

Offline Hillhurst

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 06 October 21 15:57 BST (UK) »
As you're probably aware, few centralised records of naval ratings (i.e. those who were not commissioned officers or warrant officers) were kept before 1853. In general you need to know the name of a seaman's ship in order to look him up. The muster roll or crew list should note where he was before and after his service in that ship, so you can track most people backwards and forwards from that point.

Shipí musters were taken every month or quarter for pay and accounting purposes. Effectively they were crew lists and, along with pay lists, musters are the closest thing to everyday seamenís service records kept by the Navy until 1853.

Search TNA's Discovery catalogue for a muster or pay book for a particular ship to find lists of ratings serving on the ship (ADM 31ĖADM 39, ADM 41, ADM 115, ADM 117, and ADM 119).

See this TNA link for various HMS Fantome pay books:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=fantome&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_ser=ADM+31&_ser=ADM+32&_ser=ADM+33&_ser=ADM+34&_ser=ADM+35&_ser=ADM+36&_ser=ADM+37&_ser=ADM+38&_ser=ADM+39&_ser=ADM+119&txtrestriction=ADM+41&_hb=tna

Not sure if you saw my previous post above, but here is another article (w/ illustrations). If you search the Internet, you will find the same info we are finding. The info is out there.
https://scholars.wlu.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1494&context=cmh



Offline Hillhurst

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Re: Help me interpret Royal Navy index/code from the year 1817
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 06 October 21 16:30 BST (UK) »
Just out of interest: What is the name of the man you're researching? Do you have any other details for him (e.g. birth, marriage, death) ??