Author Topic: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details  (Read 741 times)

Online Jebber

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 07 October 21 12:27 BST (UK) »
All the information on any certificate is dependent on the information provided at the time. Fictitious fathers on birth and marriage certificates, false names, incorrect marital status to conceal bigamy etc. We always have to be prepared for inconsistencies and double check using alternative sources.  ::)
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

Offline dobfarm

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 07 October 21 18:01 BST (UK) »
Hi, would appreciate your thoughts on this death and burial.

The death certificate reads: 27 Jan 1864, Mary Pitchforth, Cowcliffe Fixby, Age 10 Weeks, Daughter of Joseph Pitchforth Wool Sorter, Informant:[/b] Joseph Pitchforth, Cowcliffe Fixby present at death.

The Woodhouse Christ Church, (Huddersfield) burial register reads: 31 Jan 1864, Mary, Daughter of Sarah Ann Pitchforth of Cowcliffe, Age 10 Weeks.

Now the conundrum is, I am absolutely certain Sarah Ann Pitchforth is the daughter of Joseph Pitchforth, wool sorter of Cowcliffe Fixby.

The Fixby side of Cowcliffe was very small, only about 20 houses, and I know the family's who lived there well and do not know of another Sarah Ann Pitchforth in the Cowcliffe are.

Have searched the registers and census for another Sarah Ann Pitchforth in the Cowcliffe area without results.

Perhaps because Joseph was the informant, it was assumed that he was the father.

Is this possible?

Can't come up with another explanation.

Cheers Karen

As it reads -You say  Sarah Ann is daugher of Joseph

Sarah Ann is mother of Mary

Death cert says Joseph is father of Mary or his daugher (Same thing)

Hence some other connection
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Offline karen58

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #11 on: Friday 08 October 21 00:08 BST (UK) »
Hi Dobfarm

If there is another connection, I can't find it.

It could be as AntonyMMM has said, that Joseph claimed to be the father. Perhaps he was protecting his daughter who was a single mother.

I know that Sarah Ann is Joseph's daughter as her birth certificate records her father as 'Joseph Pitchforth of Cowcliffe Huddersfield, Wool Sorter'.

Also, it is established from Sarah Ann's death certificate that she was single when she died.

So that supports the premise that she was a single mother being consistent with Mary's burial register.

For now I will wait for the Mary Pitchforth birth certificate.

There is also the possibility that the Pitchforths had a monument at Christ Church Woodhouse that might clarify things.

Cheers
Karen


Hence some other connection
Platts & Scholefields; Saddleworth
Winterbottoms; Saddleworth and Huddersfield
Pitchforths; Halifax and Huddersfield


Offline dobfarm

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #12 on: Friday 08 October 21 04:52 BST (UK) »
Well if Joseph had been doing as records suggest  ??? - he would surely be clever enough not to put it on record, thus it suggests a record is wrong and usually a parent register a birth. Death certificate informant's are the weak link usually. Yet! if Joseph's name appears  as father of Sarah Ann birth certificate and as father on Mary's birth certificate. Then if every thing is legal, then there must be more than one Joseph. Maybe granddad Joseph of Mary also same Joseph father of Sarah Ann and his son Joseph father Mary. = 2 Joseph's
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Offline majm

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #13 on: Friday 08 October 21 05:21 BST (UK) »
.....

The death certificate reads: 27 Jan 1864, Mary Pitchforth, Cowcliffe Fixby, Age 10 Weeks, Daughter of Joseph Pitchforth Wool Sorter, Informant: Joseph Pitchforth, Cowcliffe Fixby present at death.

......

It is entirely possible that Joseph was asked the question 'Was the wee baby, Mary, your daughter' and that he lied and replied YES.   But, it is also possible that the Deputy Registrar actually asked the question in a less direct manner.    Afterall, Joseph, the informant, has given honest answers to all the remaining questions posed in that registration, including his occupation.   What if Joseph believed he was answering a question about his relationship with his daughter, Sarah Ann, the mother of the baby, Mary..  Afterall, in 1864 these questions were likely part of a verbal report rather than filling out a pro forma printed form and letting that be shared with family to check if the information is accurate ... assuming of course that everyone was literate  :-X  :-X  :-X  ....   

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Offline karen58

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #14 on: Friday 08 October 21 06:01 BST (UK) »
Hi majm,

Good point.

There is also the possibility that the registrar was little on the deaf side and didn't hear what Joseph was saying correctly.

I have a death certificate that reports a fellow as a clog maker where all other records report him as a cloth maker or clothier.

I figure this was either that informant's West Riding accent was confounding things or the registrar was deaf.

Mary died of a convulsion and Joseph was with her when she died. It would have been a very distressing experience.

I would have difficulty keeping things together in such an instance.

Cheers

Karen

Platts & Scholefields; Saddleworth
Winterbottoms; Saddleworth and Huddersfield
Pitchforths; Halifax and Huddersfield

Offline dobfarm

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #15 on: Friday 08 October 21 08:21 BST (UK) »
One has to remember (not always) these working people had little education, I say that instead of saying illiterate! as not only could they not read or write but would have little knowledge of word meanings or definition of and most likely was on up on slang or street talk knowledge of English grammar (Unless the registrar was conversant with their level of education or words they used). Thus the registrars questions in some part were - like your occupation, rephrased your job or work you do and other questions misunderstood   

I'm not on websites that have census info now a days and nothing is coming up on familysearch 1861c and 1871 c 
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Online Sloe Gin

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #16 on: Friday 08 October 21 13:28 BST (UK) »
It is entirely possible that Joseph was asked the question 'Was the wee baby, Mary, your daughter' and that he lied and replied YES.   But, it is also possible that the Deputy Registrar actually asked the question in a less direct manner.    Afterall, Joseph, the informant, has given honest answers to all the remaining questions posed in that registration, including his occupation.   What if Joseph believed he was answering a question about his relationship with his daughter, Sarah Ann, the mother of the baby, Mary..  Afterall, in 1864 these questions were likely part of a verbal report rather than filling out a pro forma printed form and letting that be shared with family to check if the information is accurate ... assuming of course that everyone was literate

Even if it was phrased that way, he could have misheard it as
'Was the wee baby, Mary, your daughter's?'

There is a lot of scope for misunderstandings, and if no other explanation is found I think I would put it down to that. 
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Offline nestagj

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Re: Death Certificate and Burial Register - inconsistent details
« Reply #17 on: Friday 08 October 21 17:40 BST (UK) »
Hi - I had a similar conumdrum and assumed the totally wrong scenario !

Great (2) grandfather Griffith was married to Elizabeth and had amongst other children - two daughters, Elizabeth and Mary.   His wife, Elizabeth, died in 1873.     

During those great old days when the Registrar would let you browse through the indexes and registers to your heart's content I found whilst looking for another death two infant deaths in 1880... One for a Ellen Roberts aged 18 months,  daughter of Griffith Roberts and reported by Elizabeth Roberts, present at death; then another for a Margaret Roberts aged two years,  daughter of Griffith Roberts and reported by Mary Roberts, present at death.   No relationship for the informants was detailed; the welsh wording for their ages was used dyflwydd (two years) and deunaw mis (18months).   This must have been around 1988/89 ..no 1891 census.

I counted on my fingers and said No Way these babies aren't his daughters a) his wife's dead and b) there's not enough months... I know they are the older daughters (the informants' children) and that was that.     

Get to the 1891 census and he had a new wife  so I thought better do a bit more research here and looked for the birth certificates of the babies - they were twins born of the second wife but sadly they died of TB within a month of each other; Griffith also lost a son aged 12 from his first wife in the same month of TB.   

I've learnt not to assume anything - two different informants used a different colloquialism to describe the babies age so I assumed  and didn't follow up
Nesta