Author Topic: Help with service numbers and battalions  (Read 752 times)

Offline Claire64

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Help with service numbers and battalions
« on: Wednesday 13 October 21 11:14 BST (UK) »
I am writing an article about my great uncle Winfield Crawshaw for our local history website so I need to get this right, if anyone could help please?
He signed up for four years with the 4th York and Lancaster Regiment on the 6th December 1914.  His service number was 3128.  This Battalion was a Territorial unit based in Sheffield.

Question: is the 4th the same as the 1st/4th?

Winfield’s service number later changed to 201198.  He was then in the 2nd/4th Battalion of the York and Lancaster.  I know that the service numbers were changed in March 1917.  The 4th York and Lancasters (Hallamshire) were allocated the numbers 200001 to 240000.  Winfield’s service record says that he was in the 2nd/4th Bn. from the 3rd May 1917 but this was the day he died.

Question: why was he moved to the 2nd/4th?

I have tried Googling but can't really get my head round it.  There isn't a lot of detail on his service record.

Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)

Offline KGarrad

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 24,826
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 11:30 BST (UK) »
The 1/4th (Hallamshire) Battalion was a separate battalion from the 4th.

Have a look at the relevant page on The Long, Long Trail website:
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/york-lancaster-regiment/
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Claire64

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 13:06 BST (UK) »
That just mentions a 1st/4th and a 1st but not a 4th?
Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)


Offline CraigM63

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 13:14 BST (UK) »
I notice that both his service record and the medal rolls indicate that he is missing/assumed dead, i.e. there isn't a body with a definitive date of death. The date of 3 May 1917 is possibly the last known date on which he was seen alive.

The 4th Battalion never seems to have served overseas, so when he was posted to a theatre of war he would have been posted to another battalion, in his case the 2/4th Battalion. The war diaries for the 2/4th Battalion can currently be downloaded for free from the National Archives, you just need to register first and create an account, but this will tell you what was happening in May 1917 when he died.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7355407


Offline CraigM63

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 97
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 13:17 BST (UK) »
Quote
That just mentions a 1st/4th and a 1st but not a 4th?

The 3/4th and 3/5th Battalions were renamed the 4th and 5th Reserve Battalions on 8 April 1916, before the 5th Battalion was absorbed into the 4th Battalion on 1 September 1916. 

Offline Claire64

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 13:48 BST (UK) »
Excellent, thank you.  A letter was sent to me recently which Winfield wrote from the Front.  A month later he was dead.  His mother received a letter saying he'd been shot and was killed instantly, but this conflicts with a letter she wrote prior to this that asks for news because he was reported missing on the 3rd.
Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)

Offline jim1

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 23,561
  • ain't life grand
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 18:24 BST (UK) »
Just to clear up any misunderstandings the 1/4th. & 4th. were one in
the same.
The prefix no. was to differentiate it from the 2nd. & 3rd. Btn's.
1st. Btn's were front line units & usually sent out first.
The 2nd. usually went later & the 3rd. stayed at home.
The 1/4 Y & L landed in France 14/4/1915.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline jim1

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 23,561
  • ain't life grand
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 18:58 BST (UK) »
OK the diary states that they formed up along the line on the map.
They lay down bayonets fixed & waited for the first wave to advance.
At that point it became chaotic for a variety of reasons but they managed to get
to there 1st. objective that being the German front line trench.
When this occurred (5am.) 4/Y & L set off as carrying parties taking up stores &
bringing back wounded.
Later that day they were ordered into the attack in order to take the 2nd. line trench.
He was 1 of 57 missing.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465080
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Offline Claire64

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 454
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help with service numbers and battalions
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 13 October 21 19:10 BST (UK) »
Thanks Jim, that's great.  Do you know what the abbreviation OMA (I think) means.  Service Medal and Award Rolls 1914-1920, "Theatre of War in which served: OMA"
Pearson (Bradwell Dby & Stocksbridge)
Donkersley
Crawshaw (Bradfield)
Evans (Bradwell Dby and Stocksbridge)
Crossley (Penistone)
Rogers (Nottinghamshire & Stocksbridge)
Bramall (Bradfield/Wadsley)
Walton (Hunshelf)