Author Topic: Old Monkland Poor Law records  (Read 493 times)

Offline StephenA6

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Old Monkland Poor Law records
« on: Thursday 14 October 21 15:53 BST (UK) »
Hi all

I have just come across a Board of Supervision record which indicates my 2xg grandmother applied for access to the Old Monkland poorhouse in 1872/3.

Hoping to now track down the poor law record ... does anyone know if the Old Monkland registers survived and if so where they are now held ?

Alternatively are there any other sources people would recommend for Old Monkland (E.g. parish records) which could help shine a light.

TIA 
Diamond, Drumnavaddy and Banbridge (- 1890)

Offline Rena

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 14 October 21 17:51 BST (UK) »
I found this online baptism database extremely helpful. It gives information of baptisms, parents and places of work (eg. Clyde Ironworks) prior to Old Monkland having its own Presbyterian kirk.

https://www.glasgowfamilyhistory.org.uk/ExploreRecords/Pages/Online-resources.aspx

"An index to the baptismal registers of St Andrew’s by the Green Episcopal Church, Glasgow, 1800-1854.  (Earlier  volumes survive which are not included in this index).​"
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 14 October 21 19:05 BST (UK) »
I found this online baptism database extremely helpful. It gives information of baptisms, parents and places of work (eg. Clyde Ironworks) prior to Old Monkland having its own Presbyterian kirk.
Someone must have got confused somewhere along the line.

The Church of Scotland has been a Presbyterian denomination since 1638 and the C of S baptism registers in the Parish of Old Monkland start in 1695. These registers are among those available on Scotland's People.

So the (Presbyterian) C of S has been the dominant church in Scotland, and in Old Monkland in particular, for the best part of 400 years.

The Clyde Ironworks were established in 1786, long after Old Monkland Parish Kirk became Presbyterian.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.


Offline Rena

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 14 October 21 20:21 BST (UK) »
I found this online baptism database extremely helpful. It gives information of baptisms, parents and places of work (eg. Clyde Ironworks) prior to Old Monkland having its own Presbyterian kirk.
Someone must have got confused somewhere along the line.

The Church of Scotland has been a Presbyterian denomination since 1638 and the C of S baptism registers in the Parish of Old Monkland start in 1695. These registers are among those available on Scotland's People.

So the (Presbyterian) C of S has been the dominant church in Scotland, and in Old Monkland in particular, for the best part of 400 years.

The Clyde Ironworks were established in 1786, long after Old Monkland Parish Kirk became Presbyterian.

For those who don't have very deep pockets - the free online baptisms supplied by Glasgow FHS is very welcome.   Actually, I was rather surprised to find some my famiy mentioned, but the address of "The Green"  gave me a clue as to how and where my gt.grandparents could have met.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 14 October 21 21:06 BST (UK) »
Yes, they are very useful. From the ones I have looked, they seem to be from churches other than the mainstream Church of Scotland - assorted Episcopal, Free and Dissenting denominations.

I was merely pointing out that there was a Presbyterian Kirk in Old Monkland long before the dates of any of these baptisms.

Some people have the idea that 'The Presbyterian Church' is or was a specific denomination. It isn't. It is a system of church hierarchy adopted first by the Church of Scotland in the 17th century and later also by the many denominations that split off from the Church of Scotland.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline StephenA6

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 14 October 21 21:49 BST (UK) »
Thank both.

any view on whether the Old Monklands poor records have survived and where they might be ?
Diamond, Drumnavaddy and Banbridge (- 1890)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 14 October 21 22:36 BST (UK) »
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Rena

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 14 October 21 23:09 BST (UK) »
Yes, they are very useful. From the ones I have looked, they seem to be from churches other than the mainstream Church of Scotland - assorted Episcopal, Free and Dissenting denominations.

I was merely pointing out that there was a Presbyterian Kirk in Old Monkland long before the dates of any of these baptisms.

Some people have the idea that 'The Presbyterian Church' is or was a specific denomination. It isn't. It is a system of church hierarchy adopted first by the Church of Scotland in the 17th century and later also by the many denominations that split off from the Church of Scotland.

I partly guessed that was the reason you took time to post your comments, which was very kind of you.    As an aside, I was glad to be able to look through the list of baptisms because it cleared up a query about the first child of one John Crum family, plus had a surprising number of military couples with head of household called  John Crum who may or may not be directly related to my John Crum, stationer of Glasgow..   I don't have them on my tree, but at least I now know where their records are.

My Mckenzie relatives  used the Old Tollcross church, which is not now standing and it's kirkyard seems to have been overlooked.  I say that because I've twice enquired of a couple of councils plus the Mitchel Library and was told the family burials were too early to be in the "Monkland" cemetery.  The fact is that the Tollcross kirk graveyard is within the Old Monkland cemetery.  The late, lovely, ApAnderson unexpectedly came across a couple of my Mckenzie headstones in the graveyard but I think there could be at least one other for an Allan Mckenzie (who also lived on the Clyde Ironworks estate).

Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Old Monkland Poor Law records
« Reply #8 on: Friday 15 October 21 10:46 BST (UK) »
I've twice enquired of a couple of councils plus the Mitchel Library and was told the family burials were too early to be in the "Monkland" cemetery.
Old Monkland Parish Kirk dates from 1790 and has its own kirkyard. Next to it is the enormous Old Monkland Cemetery which was opened in 1875.

Compare https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.84558&lon=-4.05374&layers=5&b=1&marker=55.84284,-4.17223 (1859) with https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=55.84558&lon=-4.05374&layers=6&b=1&marker=55.84284,-4.17223 (1897).

In the panel to the left of the map is a blue button. Slide this to the left to see how the cemetery has expanded since 1897.

See also https://www.northlanarkshire.gov.uk/directory/cemeteries/old-monkland-cemetery

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/138405 shows Old Monkland Parish Kirk and part of the kirkyard.

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/6409658 shows the cemetery as it is now.

Quote
The fact is that the Tollcross kirk graveyard is within the Old Monkland cemetery.
That does surprise me, because Tollcross is three or four miles west of Old Monkland Cemetery. It is in the parish of Barony, not the parish of Old Monkland, and is now in the City of Glasgow whereas Old Monkland Cemetery is in North Lanarkshire.

There is more than one surviving kirk at Tollcross, the oldest being Tollcross Central https://canmore.org.uk/site/164917/glasgow-1088-tollcross-road-tollcross-central-church. There is a burial ground next to this kirk. Of course this is not the only Tollcross in Scotland, and it's always possible that there was another Tollcross in the parish of Old Monkland, though so far I haven't found it on any maps.

This map https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400128 shows the parish boundaries as in 1832. I don't know if it will open for you as the full map, but I have zoomed in and can see Tollcross at upper left and Old Monkland Parish Kirk at lower right of my zoomed-in view, and the Old Monkland/Barony parish boundary (yellow on the O/M side, orange on the Barony side) between them.

See also http://parkheadhistory.com/surrounding-areas/tollcross/tollcross-burying-ground/ and http://parkheadhistory.com/surrounding-areas/tollcross/the-old-historic-church-of-tollcross-and-tollcross-district/
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.