Author Topic: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767  (Read 511 times)

Offline goldie61

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Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« on: Thursday 04 November 21 22:24 GMT (UK) »
This relates to this post
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=854922.0
where several eagle eyed Rootschatters were incredibly helpful on a very difficult image of this marriage.
On completing writing it out fully, I find the last two lines don't seem to have been transcribed.
Excitingly, they may turn out to give a big clue!

I have:
.................................qui ont signes
avec moi vicaire ladit jour et ane    # et aussi la certificat de monsieur


then the next bit is missing.

It seems to say:
Biltelard vicaire de la paroisse de Saint Gervais de paris en date du six ?  ?
et on approuve la ?


Is that correct?
Any suggestions welcome.
Many thanks

Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Online GR2

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 04 November 21 23:16 GMT (UK) »
I think the second last line ends with "mois" and the last line begins with "et an" - month and year. Maybe the word before is "dits" - the said month and year.

Offline jayaygee

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 04 November 21 23:34 GMT (UK) »
I think it reads "...le six des dits mois et an, approuvé le renvoy"
BDF Twigg, Ellingham, Gates
BKM Bilbey, Collins, Brandon, Norwood, Smith
HAM Holloway (Romsey area)
HRT Brooks (Tring area)
LDN Saunders, Beedle
MDX Saunders
MLN Maitland, Robertson, McGlashan(all Edinburgh)
OXF Morby, Cross, Gardner (all Banbury area)
SAL Jones, Mathews, Higginson, Davies, Gobourn, Blount
WAR Pritchard (Birmingham)
WRY Dickinson, Atkinson, Mellon, Pritchard, Ashforth, Helliwell, Hague, Dungworth (all Sheffield area)


Offline goldie61

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #3 on: Friday 05 November 21 00:33 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks GR2 and jayaygee.
Do you think that is a capital 'B' for his name? The name 'bertolle' is written several times in the text, and the writer never uses a capital B for these names - always what would look like a lower case 'b' to us.
And do you agree it does say Paris?

Google translate gives 'returned' for 'renvoy'.
I'm not sure I understand the sentence. I hope you might be able to help me out.
Why is this vicar from Paris providing a certificate? - it's added in after Louis Antoine's name, so would it apply to him? And what would 'approved the returned' mean?
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline jayaygee

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #4 on: Friday 05 November 21 08:59 GMT (UK) »
Not sure about the capital letter but they were used completely randomly in the past and I have noticed that quite often there is a capital for the first name and not for the surname, but here there is no first name for the priest.

I agree it reads "Paris", but don't know why the certificate should come from a parish there unless the bans were also read at Saint Gervais.  "Renvoi" here would mean the words to be inserted.
BDF Twigg, Ellingham, Gates
BKM Bilbey, Collins, Brandon, Norwood, Smith
HAM Holloway (Romsey area)
HRT Brooks (Tring area)
LDN Saunders, Beedle
MDX Saunders
MLN Maitland, Robertson, McGlashan(all Edinburgh)
OXF Morby, Cross, Gardner (all Banbury area)
SAL Jones, Mathews, Higginson, Davies, Gobourn, Blount
WAR Pritchard (Birmingham)
WRY Dickinson, Atkinson, Mellon, Pritchard, Ashforth, Helliwell, Hague, Dungworth (all Sheffield area)

Offline goldie61

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #5 on: Friday 05 November 21 10:35 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for your comments jayaygee.

It may well be that Antoine Louis had come from Paris, although I can't find a birth there for him, or anywhere else.
There are a couple of documents that place his father Claude Philippe as being in Paris at some point. His occupation is the same (wigmaker), and his wife's name the same, so it's pretty certain it's the same man.

One of them is a 'renonciation' at a Notaire's in Paris in 1771. google translate tells me this a 'waiver'. Do you know what this might mean? I think it's about 15 years before he actually dies - back near Montreuil, so it doesn't sound as if this is the same as a will and testament?
There's only an index translation on geneanet in the Notarial Archive - it may be beyond my powers to find out how to go about getting hold of a copy!


Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Online GR2

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #6 on: Friday 05 November 21 11:41 GMT (UK) »
My French dictionary says renonciation is a general legal term for giving something up (renouncing) and gives the correct usage for giving up the throne or the succession.

My French Mediaeval Latin dictionary says of the Latin renuntiatio that it is used for giving up a charter   as part of the process of having it confirmed to you.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #7 on: Friday 05 November 21 13:36 GMT (UK) »
Do you think that is a capital 'B' for his name?

If you mean the name in the larger script, then yes.

Offline goldie61

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Re: Last two lines of a French marriage 1767
« Reply #8 on: Friday 05 November 21 21:02 GMT (UK) »
Thanks  GR2 and HD.
I'm very curious about Claude  Louis 'renouncing' something!
I shall have to try and figure out how to get a copy of this. This is just an index on geneanet.
All new territory for me!
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs