Author Topic: Which William Sutton  (Read 1347 times)

Offline NevilleTB

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Which William Sutton
« on: Wednesday 10 November 21 07:29 GMT (UK) »
I am researching Sarah Sutton (1788-1856) who married (amongst others) James Murphy in 1818. I am interested in finding out details of her parents who were William and Ann Sutton.

Looking through family trees they seem to agree on most facts, but I have my doubts.They point to William Sutton being a convict who arrived in 1789. He was born William Talbot Sutton in 1762
<a href= "https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/discoveryui-content/view/162392640:9841?tid=&pid=&queryId=3da421652e5b32b629b70aff1a222d51&_phsrc=LxO941&_phstart=successSource" /a>

According to some family trees he was married to Ann Carrington in 1795 after having children Edward (1780), Sarah (1788), Harriet (1790) and Mary (1791). Another daughter Charlotte was born in 1798 in Kent. William had returned after serving his sentence.

In 1801 Ann, Sarah and Harriet arrived on the Porpoise. Most family trees have William returning to Australia although he is not mentioned as being on the Porpoise. I suppose he could have returned on another boat but it seems unlikely. I can find no record of his emigration.

In 1818 William, Ann and Harriet returned to England.

My Problem.
None of this seems to hang together. I suspect the father of Sarah was a convict William Sutton who arrived on the Barwick in 1795. I can find no details of his trial or his prior life in England. I believe Ann, Sarah and Harriet followed in 1801. In 1818 William, Ann and Harriet returned to London on a ship the David Shaw.
<a href="https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1602/images/30513_081749-00060?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mv3-808973&_phstart=successSource&pId=2020" /a>

So William and Ann had daughters Sarah and Harriet but cannot confirm any other children. I am unsure if William Talbot Sutton who is regularly quoted as this person is in fact the right person. I cannot find a link. As for children Edward, Charlotte and Mary, I am not sure they actually exist.

According to a number of family trees, Ann's maiden name was Carrington. I found another William Sutton born 1760 marring an Ann Giles in 1787 at St Giles Cripplegate (where else with that name)
<a href="https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/2056/images/32515_1831109387_0039-00218?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=73852404f11b364e934385fb5a0bfa82&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO962&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=171902" /a>

So to summarise I suspect William is not William Talbot. He is the convict arriving in 1795. He married Ann Giles in 1787 and had daughters Sarah in 1788 and Harriet in 1790. Ann followed him in 1801 with the children and all but Sarah returned in 1818. Perhaps William Talbot married Ann Carrington and the other children were their children.

I have just about exhausted all my sources and would be grateful if anyone could point me in a new direction.

Offline maddys52

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 10 November 21 08:56 GMT (UK) »
Very tricky with such a common name (I have a few William SUTTON's in my tree - though not this one!)

I see that the passenger list for the David Shaw in 1818 says William SUTTON was "formerly store keeper at Sydney". There are a few mentions of (I assume) this William, storekeeper, on trove between 1804 and 1816 that may be of interest.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article626199
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page6381
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628019
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628199
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628283
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article628558
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2176618

And possibly some others to do with property purchases.

And this one indicating they're leaving the colony
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2177894
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2177887

However, I see nothing here to indicate he came as a convict? And also not sure how to link your Sarah to this William SUTTON? I see she married at Parramatta (by banns, and could not sign). James MURPHY signed and witnesses John MONTGOMERY and Frances KELLEHAN (who both did not sign).

Offline maddys52

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Offline Jomot

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 10 November 21 09:28 GMT (UK) »
As far as I can tell, the William Sutton convicted in 1795 was just 19 and arrived on the Barwell, not the Barwick, or were there two similarly named men convicted around the same time?
MORGAN: Glamorgan, Durham, Ohio. DAVIS/DAVIES/DAVID: Glamorgan, Ohio.  GIBSON: Leicestershire, Durham. North Yorkshire.  JACKSON: East Yorks, North Yorks, Durham. TAYLOR: North Yorks. BOURDAS: North Yorks. JEFFREYS: Worcestershire & Northumberland. CHEESMOND: Durham/Northumberland. WINTER: Durham/Northumberland. SNOWBALL: Durham.

Offline maddys52

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 10 November 21 09:42 GMT (UK) »
Looking at the 1811 muster roll, I can see only the one William SUTTON - yes arrived Barwell, 1795.

Also in the "Free Women" are Sarah and Ann SUTTON arrived Porpoise (but no Harriet SUTTON)

Offline maddys52

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 10 November 21 10:15 GMT (UK) »
I haven't found the evidence of the land grant, however this blog suggests that indeed the convict William SUTTON who arrived on the Barwell was given 148 acres of land in 1804.
http://www.lunatribe.com/Genealogy/7012.htm

This would tie in with this advertisement in Nov 1818 which says William SUTTON ("late of Sydney") left his land to his daughter Sarah WILKES.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2178319

Not sure about WILKES, as your Sarah is SUTTON in June 1818 when she marries James MURPHY.  :-\


Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 10 November 21 10:57 GMT (UK) »
OK. Useful information. Yes. It was the Barwell rather than the Barwick. My mistake.

Sarah Sutton married John Wilks in 1807. He was in the Windsor region. She then moved on to James Murphy. In the Stock and Property Book James is listed. He has 5 cattle on the 14th of Oct 1819. He does not appear to have a land holding.

It is interesting that the best man at his wedding, John Montgomery is a substantial landholder on the same page of the records. He has 50 acres of which only 5 is cleared. He still has 4 horses, 14 cattle, 4 hogs, 10 bushels of wheat and 20 of maize. Possibly James was working for John Montgomery.

In this reference there is reference to Sarah and Hannah. Could Hannah have been Harriet?
https://www.australianhistoryresearch.info/list-of-free-settlers-from-england-who-been-left-by-different-ships-without-any-order-from-government-as-the-1802-muster/

There was another William Sutton around at the time but he went to Tasmania. The first WS who came out in 1789 seems to have faded away.

Too many nebulous links. I will go through all the replies in detail tomorrow. Thanks for your input.

 

Offline maddys52

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 11 November 21 04:36 GMT (UK) »
Where do you see the marriage of Sarah SUTTON and John WILKS? On the NSW BDM index I see a John WILKINSON married Elizabeth HARRIS in 1807, however nothing for Sarah.  :-\

If your Sarah married John WILKS, why didn't she marry James MURPHY as Sarah WILKS?

Offline maddys52

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 11 November 21 04:48 GMT (UK) »
Just to confuse things more ...

Looking at the 1822 muster I see a Sarah SUTTON who arrived on the Porpoise (so presumably not married to James MURPHY). There is also the William SUTTON who has a free pardon and arrived on the Barwell (labourer at Parramatta) and 5 SUTTON children born in the colony "children of Sarah Sutton, Parra".

So this implies the William SUTTON, storekeeper who travelled back to England is not the William SUTTON who arrived as a convict on the Barwell.

(Note there are 2 other William SUTTONs as well - at Windsor and Bathurst.)