Author Topic: Which William Sutton  (Read 1372 times)

Offline Rhonda May

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 11 November 21 04:55 GMT (UK) »
William Sutton
transported on the Neptune, Scarborough and Surprize, December 1789   
London Gaol Delivery
https://convictrecords.com.au/

Was he this man?
Number INX-65-124866
SUTTON William
Record Type Absolute Pardon
Date 12 Nov 1794
Citation [4/4486; Reel 800 Page 002]
Index Number 65
https://records-primo.hosted.exlibrisgroup.com/primo-explore/search?vid=61SRA


Mention of the storekeeper
Item: 97468
Sutton William
Ship: -
Date: 1807 22 March
Place: Newcastle (Coal River)
Source: SG
Details: William Sutton, Storekeeper at Coal River dismissed from his Office because of his disorderly and improper manner to Charles Throsby. Sutton replaced by John Tucker
https://www.freesettlerorfelon.com/


This William SUTTON already mentioned in Reply #3 is unlikely to be a father?
Age 19 | Ship: Barwell | Place of Trial: Surrey | Sentence: 7 years | County: Surrey

Offline maddys52

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 11 November 21 05:06 GMT (UK) »
Sarah WILKS,"agent for Wm Sutton" of Parramatta, is also mentioned in various Colonial Secretary's Papers (11 July 1818 and other dates) - this is later than the marriage of Sarah SUTTON to James MURPHY (8 June 1818). So again, I think they are 2 different Sarahs.  :-\

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 11 November 21 06:34 GMT (UK) »
Let me cover Sarah Sutton first. I know most of her life except where her parents fit in

1789 Baptized in Christ Church Spitelfield, Stepney, London on 18 Oct 1789. The entry reads
“Sarah Sutton by William Sutton of White Row by Ann”. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1624/images/31280_194728-00319?usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO612&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=3426207

1806 Sarah had taken up with John Wilkes in 1806. She was only 17 at the time. It may have been a convict John Wilkes who arrived on 16 Oct 1789. John arrived on the Admiral Barrington after being convicted on 25 Feb 1789. In 1806 They had a daughter Harriet Wilks REF: 1658/1806   2141/1806   639/1806

1807 Sarah Sutton may have married John Wilks around this time. It is mentioned in several family trees however no record exists. I personally doubt it happened.

1808 Sarah had a son William Wilks. REF: 1666/1808   1866/1808   589/1808   2140/1808

1809 John Wilks is in the Hawkesbury area. https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1905&h=28749&tid=&pid=&queryId=6d80acc112cc17d7094c482ce98949a7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO731&_phstart=successSource

1810 James and Sarah had a daughter Mary Ann Murphy born on 5 Dec 1810. She was christened on 28 Apr 1811. As she was born out of wedlock and was not registered. She still went by the name Sarah Wilks. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00434?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO660&_phstart=successSource&pId=29113

1811 Sarah’s three-year-old son William Wilks passed away REF: 2746/1811   889/1811, James Murphy was included in the convict muster. REF: https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/8813/images/41720_329547-00090?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=d47f743e6a80edf2fb9bc26b01f7370c&usePUB=true&_phsrc=mv3-1597125&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=71545

1813 James and Sarah had a daughter Margaret Elizabeth Murphy on 26 Feb 1813. She was baptized at St John's Church Parramatta on 28 Mar 1813. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00446?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO658&_phstart=successSource&pId=29225

1814 James Murphy was included in the population records for Windsor.He is working for T. L. Sawyer. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/8813/images/41720_329547-00221?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=fa75b26e71885f5a036e84c3d07e9a4b&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO932&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=67432

1816 James and Sarah had a daughter Susannah Murphy born 8 Feb 1816 and Christened at St John's Parramatta on 11 Dec 1817. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00471?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO663&_phstart=successSource&pId=29470

1818 James Murphy and Sarah Sutton were married in Sydney on 8 Jun 1818. REF: 2197/1818. William Sutton, the father of Sarah, sailed for England on the ship David Shaw in May 1818 with his wife and daughter Harriet Sutton.

1819 James and Sarah had a daughter Catherine Murphy born on 15 Sept 1819. This was the first child registered. This was probably a result of James and Sarah had been married the year before. REF: 5220/1819 Catherine Murphy was christened on 10 Sept 1820 at St John's Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00488?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO665&_phstart=successSource&pId=2963

1820 Death of James Murphy aged 51 of the parish of Parramatta. He was buried on 7 Sep 1820. It does not appear he ever received a certificate of freedom and died a convict. REF: 4785/1820

Continued .........


Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 11 November 21 06:38 GMT (UK) »
Around this time Sarah became involved with George Pember (1783-1850). She was 32 at the time. George had come out a convict.
George Pember, one of 401 convicts transported on the ship Glatton, September 1802.
Sentence details: Convicted at Hereford Assizes for a term of life on 05 August 1801.
Vessel: Glatton.
Date of Departure: September 1802.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Glatton arrived in NSW 11 Mar 1803

1821 Son Phillip Pember (1821-1852) was born. REF: 5852/1821 The name on the birth registration is Sarah (Murphy)

1823 Sarah received a grant of land in Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228362__0001-00013?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=9e608a96f42cf60b52231b09a5341e4f&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO644&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=118541

1824 Sarah Murphy married Henry Schooler at Campbelltown. She was 36 at the time. Just to keep up the record Henry was also a convict. He was 37. REF: 3296/1824   3298/1824
Henry Skooler, one of 306 convicts transported on the ship Fortune and Alexander, January 1806.
Sentence details: Convicted at Middlesex Gaol Delivery for a term of 14 years on 24 April 1805.
Vessel: Fortune and Alexander.
Date of Departure: January 1806.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Fortune (1) arrived in the colony on 12 Jul 1806

1828 Sarah was included in the census at Parramatta living with Henry Schooler. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525 This is relevant as it mentions the Murphy children

1845 Sarah Schooler as she was now known, made a land claim. She had a lease on the land for 21 years (since 1823) but had not paid the rent. She offered to pay a fine equal to the outstanding rent. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12880698?searchTerm=sarah%20schooler

1866 It is unclear when Sarah Sutton/Wilkes/Murphy/Schooler died. Various family trees say 1855 but there is no record of her death under any of her names in 1855. In addition, there are no death notices in newspapers, so we are unable to confirm that date.
Her most-used surname was Murphy so the death would likely have been listed as Sarah Murphy. There was a Sarah Murphy who died in 1866 aged 75 years. This particular Sarah would have been born in 1790 or 1791. We have Sarah being born in 1789 so the numbers closely align. Death records can be unreliable so perhaps this was Sarah Sutton etc. REF: 1484/1866

1867 Sarah’s husband Henry Schooler died in Liverpool. He was 80 so he would have been born in 1787. REF: 5603/1867
Around this time Sarah became involved with George Pember (1783-1850). She was 32 at the time. George had come out a convict.
George Pember, one of 401 convicts transported on the ship Glatton, September 1802.
Sentence details: Convicted at Hereford Assizes for a term of life on 05 August 1801.
Vessel: Glatton.
Date of Departure: September 1802.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Glatton arrived in NSW 11 Mar 1803

1821 Son Phillip Pember (1821-1852) was born. REF: 5852/1821 The name on the birth registration is Sarah (Murphy)

1823 Sarah received a grant of land in Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228362__0001-00013?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=9e608a96f42cf60b52231b09a5341e4f&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO644&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=118541

Continued ......


















Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 11 November 21 06:38 GMT (UK) »
1824 Sarah Murphy married Henry Schooler at Campbelltown. She was 36 at the time. Just to keep up the record Henry was also a convict. He was 37. REF: 3296/1824   3298/1824
Henry Skooler, one of 306 convicts transported on the ship Fortune and Alexander, January 1806.
Sentence details: Convicted at Middlesex Gaol Delivery for a term of 14 years on 24 April 1805.
Vessel: Fortune and Alexander.
Date of Departure: January 1806.
Place of Arrival: New South Wales. The ship Fortune (1) arrived in the colony on 12 Jul 1806

1828 Sarah was included in the census at Parramatta living with Henry Schooler. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1224/images/CSAUS1828A_081763-0022?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO748&_phstart=successSource&pId=525 This is relevant as it mentions the Murphy children

1845 Sarah Schooler as she was now known, made a land claim. She had a lease on the land for 21 years (since 1823) but had not paid the rent. She offered to pay a fine equal to the outstanding rent. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12880698?searchTerm=sarah%20schooler

1866 It is unclear when Sarah Sutton/Wilkes/Murphy/Schooler died. Various family trees say 1855 but there is no record of her death under any of her names in 1855. In addition, there are no death notices in newspapers, so we are unable to confirm that date.
Her most-used surname was Murphy so the death would likely have been listed as Sarah Murphy. There was a Sarah Murphy who died in 1866 aged 75 years. This particular Sarah would have been born in 1790 or 1791. We have Sarah being born in 1789 so the numbers closely align. Death records can be unreliable so perhaps this was Sarah Sutton etc. REF: 1484/1866

1867 Sarah’s husband Henry Schooler died in Liverpool. He was 80 so he would have been born in 1787. REF: 5603/1867

Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 11 November 21 06:42 GMT (UK) »
And to add to the confusions, confuddlements and dilemmas,  there are definitely some/plenty of official records that MAY WELL belong to any of the chaps known as William SUTTON but are possibly claimable (rightly or wrongly) by family history buffs researching William SUTTOR.   (Sutter and other variations too).   

One of the 'problems' is the standard of scribble of the clergy in NSW ... Rev Marsden's scribble v Rev Cowper's scribble v Rev Cartwright's scribble - 

JM 

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Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 11 November 21 07:02 GMT (UK) »
I am not sure what you mean when you write 'registered' :

......
1810 James and Sarah had a daughter Mary Ann Murphy born on 5 Dec 1810. She was christened on 28 Apr 1811. As she was born out of wedlock and was not registered. She still went by the name Sarah Wilks. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00434?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO660&_phstart=successSource&pId=29113
 .......

1819 James and Sarah had a daughter Catherine Murphy born on 15 Sept 1819. This was the first child registered. This was probably a result of James and Sarah had been married the year before. REF: 5220/1819 Catherine Murphy was christened on 10 Sept 1820 at St John's Parramatta. https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00488?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO665&_phstart=successSource&pId=2963
.....

I ask, because 'registered' to me when referring to NSW bdm  indicates a civil registration process, and in NSW that does not commence until 1 March 1856.   The Early Church Records (the 'V' series held by NSW BDM) has never been considered to contain all the bdm events that occurred in NSW from first settlement until civil registration.  It has not even claimed to have all the religious baptisms or burials or marriages for any of the more popular denominations.   It does have MANY of the church records for the various denominations for those years/decades before the NSW bdm civil process commenced.   There is a fairly reliable document put together by NSW BDM back in 2006, celebrating 150 years of civil registrations. 

https://www.nsw.gov.au/births-deaths-marriages/about-us/history-of-registry

Two paragraphs from that document read:

Church registrations
From 1788 to 1856 the only birth, death or marriage records kept in NSW were the registers maintained by the established churches. The Registry holds transcriptions of these early church records. Any surviving original registers are located in the NSW Archives.

Unfortunately, the extant records for this period are not comprehensive. Some ministers, missionaries and other authorised administrators kept records but not all were in a position to be this diligent. In addition many of the records contain inaccuracies and bad spelling. Distances to town centres, distrust of authority and lack of participation in formal church services contributed to the church registration system's inability to adequately record the details of all births, deaths and marriages that occurred in NSW.


Ancestry has some of the Sydney C of E baptisms, burials and marriages.  So, for example does NOT even have all of the parishes covering Sydney CBD.   The NSW State Library and the NSW State Archives do have reels of film of the NSW BDM holdings for the Early Church Records. 

To the best of my knowledge (and I have checked with my ancient living rellies - retired NSW BDM senior officers, and retired C of E clergy), there has never been any concern as to the status of a baby's parent/s in respect of baptising the baby.   So whether baby's mum is married or not, baby is eligible to be baptised, and it has been that way in NSW since first settlement. 

JM
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Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 11 November 21 07:21 GMT (UK) »
Moving on to William Sutton, someone by that name seems to have been a storekeeper in Newcastle (Coal River) in 1804, dismissed in 1807, appointed by the governor as storekeeper in 1810, was still there in 1816. He left the colony in 1818 on the David Shaw with wife and daughter Harriet. Obviously she had been rescued from her tryst in 1806.

In parallel, there is a land grant to William in 1806 and the transfer of the land to Sarah in 1818.

Perhaps William was granted land while working as a storekeeper in Newcastle and gave it to Sarah when he left the colony. There is no reference I can turn up for the death of a William Sutton, so maybe the reason for the gift was William went back to England. Sarah and James Murphy were married in 1818 so maybe it was a significant year for the family.

I am now thinking William the convict on the Barwell is the storekeeper who went back to England.

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 11 November 21 07:26 GMT (UK) »
Thanks to majm for the lesson on birth records. By registration I meant BDM records but I was not aware of the information in your post. Very enlightening.