Author Topic: Which William Sutton  (Read 2203 times)

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #36 on: Friday 12 November 21 10:31 GMT (UK) »
If the shopkeeper William Sutton who returned to England was the father of Sarah, it begs the question of how he got here.  The convict in 1795 was still around in the 1820's, so was her father the convict who came in 1789 or someone else?

Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #37 on: Friday 12 November 21 22:10 GMT (UK) »
If the shopkeeper William Sutton who returned to England was the father of Sarah, it begs the question of how he got here.  The convict in 1795 was still around in the 1820's, so was her father the convict who came in 1789 or someone else?


Some thoughts

 :) Have you searched the digitised newspapers/gazette looking for 'Wm. Sutton' and also for 'Mr Sutton' and for 'W. Sutton' as well as 'William Sutton'.  - Can do from your Armchair.

 :) Have you searched for information on the land granted to William Sutton?  It may well include his application which in turn is likely to include his 'Ship of Arrival' and a list of his 'Capital' to support his application.   May need to actually go to NSW State Archives at Kingswood, NSW and research in person.   

 :) As mentioned previously, passenger lists from that era do not reflect the sum total of all passenger movements to and from New South Wales.  So don't get bogged down on not finding a shipping list with his name on it either inbound or outbound.   Here's the NSW State Archives guide on this. https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/immigration-shipping-guide   Notice their careful wording includes the following: The earliest departure list is dated 1794 but apart from the Ships musters, 1816-25 (NRS 1289), outward passenger lists were not regularly maintained until 1898.  and We hold records of free settlers from 1792-1922. Most of these records relate to free settlers arriving in Sydney  and Tips to remember Until 1854, many unassisted passengers (particularly steerage passengers) were not listed individually on a passenger list. ​Newspapers for this period (available for searching on the National Library of Australia's Trove website) often reported a ship's arrival and these may contain a list of passengers   Can start this mini project from your Armchair.

And I am sure there were at least EIGHT chaps in NSW in 1818 or thereabouts.

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #38 on: Friday 12 November 21 22:41 GMT (UK) »
Here's eight candidates William SUTTON

1.   Per the Scarborough arriving 28 June 1790, Life Sentence 

2.   Per the Barwell, arriving 18 May 1798, 7 year Sentence:  on Muster 1814, Windsor NSW with Mary Connor, on Muster Sept 1822 at Parramatta; on Muster 1825  at Parramatta.

3.   Per the Elizabeth arriving 5 Oct 1816, Life; in 1821 assigned to Simeon Lord (a significant figure in Sydney Town at that time)

4.   Per the General Stuart arriving 31 December 1818, 7 years; Jan 1819 at Windsor NSW, Sept 1822 still at Windsor

5.   Per the Grenada, arriving 21 October 1819, 14 years; 1819 at Emu Plains NSW, 

6.   OUTWARD Bound, from Sydney to London, former Storekeeper of Sydney, per the David Shaw departing May 1818 – (JM notes see reel 561 at NSW State Archives, Kingswood).

7.   Born in NSW circa 1805, and listed as at Bathurst NSW on 1822 NSW Land records

8.   December 1816 Land at Botany adjoining Dr Robert Townson’s land (JM notes that Dr Townson noted as a Scientist arrived per the Young William)

Once you find some mention in the newspapers and/or archives and/or online trees and/or online digitised images then you may want to determine if you can identify if the info applies to any of the above chaps.   There may of course be other chaps who were also known as William SUTTON ... soldiers, seamen, and mis-transcribed bods too ... SUTTON, SUTTOR, SETTER, etc. etc. etc.

JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #39 on: Saturday 13 November 21 00:39 GMT (UK) »
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD36-1-1p25j2k   This is a live link to the marriage of a Harriet SUTTON and Adolarius William Henry HUMPHREY. 
 
I think this lass was the same lass as referred to in the NSW Col Sec Papers as being the daughter of William SUTTON, the chap appointed as Government Storekeeper whose daughter was in VDL with a Mr Humphrey. 

A chap named William Sutton had written to the Governor desiring that Harriet be returned to her parents in Sydney.  See Col Sec papers INDEX and Reel 6003; 4/3492 pp.25-6.  That William Sutton was noted as ‘former Storekeeper’ and ‘of Sydney’ on that index in Sept 1816, and received grants of land at Minto December 1816.  His ship of arrival may have been noted on the land grant.  Harriet may be a sister/half sister to Sarah WILKES. 

ADD, I think it worthwhile to remember that Sarah WILKS was acting as Agent for William SUTTON from as early as 1814.  - see the Col Sec Papers index - WILKS, Sarah
Agent for William Sutton. ..... between 8 May 1814 and 9 Jan 1819 (Reel 6048; 4/1742 p.63)

JM
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Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #40 on: Saturday 13 November 21 01:47 GMT (UK) »
Good summary of all the William Suttons. Since Sarah was certainly around with John Wilks in 1805/06, it would be a reasonable assumption William was around too. That eliminates 5 of the 8. The other three are William arriving 1798, William on the Barwick 1795 and the shopkeeper who left in 1818.

Could William from 1798 ended up as a shopkeeper? Perhaps I should be trying to find out what happened to him after he arrived in 1798.


Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #41 on: Saturday 13 November 21 02:04 GMT (UK) »
.....
1818 James Murphy and Sarah Sutton were married in Sydney on 8 Jun 1818. REF: 2197/1818. William Sutton, the father of Sarah, sailed for England on the ship David Shaw in May 1818 with his wife and daughter Harriet Sutton. ......

and
I haven't found the evidence of the land grant, however this blog suggests that indeed the convict William SUTTON who arrived on the Barwell was given 148 acres of land in 1804.
http://www.lunatribe.com/Genealogy/7012.htm

This would tie in with this advertisement in Nov 1818 which says William SUTTON ("late of Sydney") left his land to his daughter Sarah WILKES.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2178319

Not sure about WILKES, as your Sarah is SUTTON in June 1818 when she marries James MURPHY.  :-\

and
Yes, this is the same advertisement that I noted in reply #5 (though on 7 Nov 1818). I think it reasonable to draw the conclusion that the land was given to the William SUTTON who returned to England earlier that year, hence "late of Sydney".

and 
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177713 Sydney Gaz 24 Jan 1818, and a Mr Sutton, Pitt Street.
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177817 Sydney Gaz 14 March 1818,  Mrs Sutton, 16 Pitt Street.   
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177887 Sydney Gaz 18 April 1818,  Brick Dwelling house, Mr Sutton, 16 Pitt St  AND in next column from the Postmaster, unclaimed letters etc ... W Sutton....
and
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2177894 Sydney Gaz 18 April 1818
Mr W SUTTON and Family leaving the Colony in the David Shaw, request all Claims against them, (if any) may be presented. And those persons indebted are requested to come forward and settle their Accounts.

and  https://www.mq.edu.au/macquarie-archive/lema/1818/1818may.html
Wedy. 20. May 1818  ... The Private Merchant Ship David Shaw Commanded by Capt. Ker, sailed late this Evening for England. I gave charge of my Dispatches to Lieut. Mott of the Royal Navy, who is chief officer of this Ship. —I have sent Home Jeremiah OFlynn the Popish Priest by this opportunity. Major Mc.Kenzie of the 46th. Regt. is gone Home as a Passenger in the David Shaw.

Question if I may
Are you certain that the W Sutton and Family were 'YOUR' William and his family...  I have not yet found confirmation that the W in that newspaper cutting of 18 April 1818 was W as in William.  Yes, very likely W was for William ... but ... what if  ...  and where do we know Mrs Sutton's given name, and who were the family members who accompanied W Sutton ... no mention of Mrs A W L Humphrey (formerly Harriet SUTTON of the Derwent), and Sarah WILKES clearly stayed in NSW

JM






The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #42 on: Saturday 13 November 21 02:09 GMT (UK) »
Good summary of all the William Suttons. Since Sarah was certainly around with John Wilks in 1805/06, it would be a reasonable assumption William was around too. That eliminates 5 of the 8. The other three are William arriving 1798, William on the Barwick 1795 and the shopkeeper who left in 1818.

Could William from 1798 ended up as a shopkeeper? Perhaps I should be trying to find out what happened to him after he arrived in 1798.

You need to keep all those chaps front and centre in your searchings, so you don't get tempted to put any 'new' clues to one of the THREE you are concentrating on, as though it MUST belong to one of those three.  It could well belong to one of the FIVE you are setting aside.    Many of the newspaper cuttings  have little in the way of identifying which one is which.

How you go about your research is of course your own decision, and how much 'evidence' you need to satisfy yourself for 'proof' is also up to you.  But I can see where some of those online trees may well have huge flaws so in my view it is wise for you to persist with your quest.

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline maddys52

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #43 on: Saturday 13 November 21 02:18 GMT (UK) »
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD36-1-1p25j2k   This is a live link to the marriage of a Harriet SUTTON and Adolarius William Henry HUMPHREY. 
 


That is a good find JM!
Adolarius' 1829 will can be seen here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r1z/

He leaves his estate to his dear wife Harriet.

Lots to read about him on trove, including this short biography:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66015271 (2nd column near the bottom of the page)

It says HUMPHREY's widow married "Mr. Kerr". possibly this marriage in 1831 to John KERR
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01r20/

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #44 on: Saturday 13 November 21 02:22 GMT (UK) »
Good question. The family line went on through Margaret Elizabeth Murphy (1813-1875). I have the baptism in Parramatta
https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/60622/images/44132_1831101454_0699-00446?treeid=&personid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO658&_phstart=successSource&pId=29225
Harriet of the Derwent was probably the daughter of another convict William Sutton sent to Tasmania. Don't have the details but I did see him during research. He went to Tasmania and stayed. I will go over my notes to see if I can confirm W was William. Unfortunately other family trees can send you down the wrong path.