Author Topic: Which William Sutton  (Read 1386 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #90 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 07:03 GMT (UK) »
I get the feeling we are running out of leads on this query. We seem to have exhausted all avenues. Do you agree it is time to close it off?

No,  but I think it is time to undertake research rather than rely on looking up images on commercial family history websites.   There are many archival resources freely available online, that anyone can access from their armchair.    The AJCP,  Sands NSW directories, Civil county and parish maps,  or if you have inclination, go visit the State Library in Sydney CBD, or State Archives at Kingswood or Parramatta History centre,   plenty of staff or volunteers there willing and knowledgeable and available no charge. 

JM.
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Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #91 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 08:08 GMT (UK) »
Actually that is where I started. I had done many hours of online research before we started. I used online trees as a starting point but mainly used BDM and Ancestry Library. In the last year I have accumulated about 20 online resources - many through help of people such as you on Rootchat. I think I will now spend a few hours going through all these comments and see what I can put together as a document on William Sutton. I will also go through the 30+ pages of information I have accumulated on Sarah and check for any errors although I think I am about 90% right on that document.

Would be grateful for any other specific sources you might recommend.

Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #92 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 21:58 GMT (UK) »
Actually that is where I started. I had done many hours of online research before we started. I used online trees as a starting point but mainly used BDM and Ancestry Library. In the last year I have accumulated about 20 online resources - many through help of people such as you on Rootchat. I think I will now spend a few hours going through all these comments and see what I can put together as a document on William Sutton. I will also go through the 30+ pages of information I have accumulated on Sarah and check for any errors although I think I am about 90% right on that document.

Would be grateful for any other specific sources you might recommend.

Hi there,

Thank you for sharing how you have approached your family history efforts. 

Perhaps because I came to family history quite some decades ago, and long before the internet, and commercial family history websites, I seem to have a different understanding of the concept of 'research'.  I am of the firm belief that family history research is far more than searching through online 'resources' (including online trees) and far far more than looking up/through indexes or digitised records shared online or even going to institutions providing access to their archival material for you to photograph or arrange photocopy etc or by interviewing to obtain oral history ... and so on and etc ....   

To me research is about analysing the items that have been found by searching or looking up or reading/hearing about ....    So analysing something found in someone's online tree is about appreciating it is someone's else's 'research' and their efforts may not have been through any analysing at all.    Analysing ... as in scrutinising every minute aspect - the 'how, when, where, what, why and who' of the document/image/report/artefact/ ....   

If I may indulge a tad further by explaining how I could validate in this current century my own research undertaken in the 1960s for one of my NSW families who had arrived during the reign of Lachlan Macquarie (yes, I use colourful words, for he reigned, absolutely!).  So my starting point would be the family Bible entry, giving me date of baptism.   I could then look up the NSW BDM online Births index and compare it with the familysearch organisations online records search (NOT the family trees on there, not the ancestry or find my past family trees) and then I could look at any transcription that may be at the Biographical Database of Australia.   So that would be providing three or four SECONDARY sources to confirm that a baby's baptism is recorded in the C of E register of St Philip's, Sydney.   The PRIMARY source being the family Bible which in fact shows baby was baptised by Wesleyan rites and the summary information about that ceremony was then transmitted to St Philips C of E, in Sydney.
     
So far, all I have described is 'search and find' ... to me that is not research.  I have not yet started analysing those records.   And I am well aware that there's scant family history info on baptismal records to 'join the dots' to 'prove' I am a descendant of that baby.  I need to keep good notes, citing properly and keep an open mind. 

But ... bear with me ... the researching on that baptism was easy ... I knew (from previous experience and from reliable rellies too) that the Sydney Gazette was accessable via the Mitchell Library Reading Rooms (that's how it was known, its part of the State Library, Sydney CBD, Macquarie St etc)...  So I spent many hours/days across several months, reading - looking for Macquarie's general orders re Baptisms and Burials. 

Here's one of the digitised articles
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/628068 Sydney Gaz 15 Sept 1810.  So the NSW Chaplains were responsible for receiving transmitted records about all the baptisms and burials in the then NSW territories from 1 January 1810 to 30 Sept 1810, and recording them. -  In a later issue of the Gazette there's a news item giving details of the birth of my ancestor and the government official's name and title (ADDING, the father of baby).   

Using that concept of research and devising your own way of seeking out to whatever depth/standard you choose, is of course your choice.   

I fully support your desire to learn about all your first migrating families to NSW.  It is a hobby that will last your lifetime, and which you can encourage others in your family to contribute to, and to start researching themselves for their offspring to enjoy too.

JM  FURTHER ADD :  The Advanced Search option at bda may well help you to construct a 2021 version of a partial passenger list of those who are recorded on Musters and through to the 1828 census as arriving in NSW per the Porpoise in 1800.   That may help you with your Sarah SUTTON. 
 
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #93 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 23:20 GMT (UK) »
....
Would be grateful for any other specific sources you might recommend.

 :) According to the internet, Cyndi's list was last updated 16 October 2021
https://www.cyndislist.com/australia/  and that leads to NSW : https://www.cyndislist.com/australia/states/nsw/  The headings on that list are in an Alphabetical order, so Ancestry is ''first" and I notice that it lists the Original Source - yes, the NSW State Archives at Kingswood. 

 :) https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/New_South_Wales,_Australia_Genealogy

 :) https://www.bda-online.org.au/

 :) https://www.sag.org.au/

 :)  https://www.naa.gov.au/help-your-research

 :) https://www.nla.gov.au/

 :) https://www.cityofparramatta.nsw.gov.au/visiting/history/parramatta-heritage-visitor-information-centre

 :) https://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/

 :) https://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/

That's a start  :) 

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #94 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 04:17 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the input. You are right when you say it is a lifetime quest to put the story of our past together. Most of my work was done during Covid so I was totally reliant on the Internet. I decided to go for breadth before depth. I wanted to go back through all the people who had a "grandparent" in their relationship to me.

My reasoning was that I thought I could probably get 70% of the information with a minimal amount of knowledge about what I was doing, but would need to learn a lot more to get the remaining 30% of available history. I guess this variation of the 80:20 rule applies to effort as well. The remaining 30% of history will take 70% of the time.

There were a few surprises. Some family stories passed down were wrong, or information was missing. An Aboriginal heritage was never mentioned by anyone. Probably not something to be spoken about in decades past. Even my own father (born 1916) turned out to have aspects of his life I was not aware of. I found 18 convicts who were direct ancestors so have certainly learned much about what information is available on convicts.

Unfortunately I left it too late to start this project as only my generation remains. Parents, uncles and aunts have all passed on. Even the few cousins I have are severely depleted.

I will go through the links you have provided. Although I have stumbled across a few online sources, I still rely heavily on Ancestory, BDM and Trove. I take your point about research being more than just gathering  information including other trees. My approach has been to document what I find and try to identify if it is factual backed up by a source, or unverified. In the process I have been able to eliminate quite a few bits of information on other websites, and put together various pieces of research to reach a different conclusion. Sometimes I feel I should have a board like in a TV murder mystery to link bits together.

I have about 10% of your knowledge on how to research family history and I am grateful for not only the information you have discovered on William Sutton, but for the lessons you have provided on HOW to find the information. That is more valuable than the new facts. Finally, it is the RootChat forum that has been my "go to" place when I have reached a dead end (excuse the pun) in research using my limited knowledge.

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #95 on: Thursday 25 November 21 07:04 GMT (UK) »
Just when I thought this was over, some new information, or at least a new theory. It is regarding the Harriet Sutton who left with William and Ann in 1818 for England on the David Shaw. I now think it is their granddaughter rather than daughter.

Daughter Harriet eloped with Mr Humphrey in 1806. At some stage they went to Tasmania and in 1811 in the Colonial Secretary's Papers there was a letter requesting her return. It mentioned she was with Mr Humphrey and she was the daughter of William Sutton the storekeeper. This ties the three people together.

https://www.ancestrylibrary.com.au/imageviewer/collections/1905/images/32086_228405-00113?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&queryId=659232f4758d1adf20c2874154e29033&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO984&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=9659

Adolarius William Henry Humphrey married Harriet on 28 Aug 1812 in Hobart.
https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1780&h=368669&tid=&pid=&queryId=a2e5dda603cf4ad4742323ffdbd6f43a&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO1035&_phstart=successSource

He went on to be a magistrate and Superintendent of Police before dying in 1827. Harriet married John Kerr in 1831.
https://search.ancestrylibrary.com.au/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1780&h=368582&tid=&pid=&queryId=a0ac8bfcc9388fe3ddf5c032eeeda9a7&usePUB=true&_phsrc=LxO1042&_phstart=successSource

It seemed unlikely daughter Harriet returned to England with her parents in 1818 then came back to Australia. On the other hand, William and Ann's daughter Sarah also had a daughter Harriet in 1806 with John Wilks. When William and Ann returned to England Harriet would have been 12 and given the progression of men in Sarah's life, and the fact their daughter Harriet had run away, the parents may have thought it better to take Harriet back to England.

I have searched for mention of Sarah's daughter Harriet past 1818 and can find no record of her. It seems likely she was the Miss Harriet Sutton on the David Shaw in May 1818. The other Harriet was married in Tasmania in 1812 and was no longer Miss Sutton.

Offline majm

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #96 on: Thursday 25 November 21 23:32 GMT (UK) »
Hi Neville,

Perhaps I have not placed sufficient importance in my previous posts on your threads and on threads that others start regarding the lack extant records for NSW family history in the early years from first settlement to say the NSW 1828 Census.  Even that census is likely to have missed many families. 

But significantly, in my view, until you have joined the dots from you back to your William SUTTON, you are umm.... basically ... umm.... simply speculating that any of the SUTTON family departing NSW in May 1818 per the David Shaw are your ancestors.     

May I assure you that there are many NSW centric family history buffs whose research extends way deeper than online images found of public records held at NSW State Archives.  Even those who confine themselves to NSW State Archives delve much deeper than the NSW Col Sec Papers, or the Musters, or the 1828 Census.     Then there's the resources at the NSW State Library.  Then there's the resources at the NSW City of Sydney Archives.   Then there's the resources at the Society of Genealogists.   

Have you sought to locate any Family Bibles in your NSW ancestors born in say the 1800s ... the front sections of those often have the Baptism info for the children and grandchildren born of the original owner of that rather large, leather bound book.   Do you have copy of private correspondence between NSW family and their cousins/aunts/uncles/grandparents back in Britain, giving news of births, marriages, deaths, employment opportunities, then current addresses ....

In my view, the Macquarie era 1810-1821 and the Bigge 'Royal Commission' were not really interested in recording the personal/identifying/sensitive information for those who arrived in NSW who were NOT under a sentence of a civil court.  In my view, there's scant information for those who 'came free' unless they were public figures.  In my view, there's little or NO extant public records of perhaps most of the 'came free' females - whether came as babes in arms of their convict mum, or as children of a garrison soldier, or as children of free settlers. 

On the other hand, it is of course within your own remit to decide: how you know if you are a descendant of any deceased person; how you share that knowledge; who you share it with; when you share it; why you share it and where you share it.    So I am hoping you are not setting aside all the searching you have already done.   I am just perhaps being pedantic and hoping that you will consider undertaking 'real research'.   

I assure you that there is something very special in being handed a file you have ordered (no charge !) at the NSW Archives, to sit, alone, and then, on working your way through it to come across the actual signatures of your Great Great Great Great Grandfather, and two of his grandchildren on an official document, when you have known, per oral history only, for over fifty years that two of your own given names are for those two grandchildren.  That's research - not a fluke, not a tip from an online index or image, but solid research through deeds, private family papers, Mitchell Library, State Library, SAG, talking with ancient living rellies, reading my own notes from the 1960s and then ..... - finally confidentially 'knowing' which document that chap and his two grandchildren MAY have signed as witnesses to a possible incident in the lives of their then neighbours and that those neighbours DID take legal action against the perpetrator who may have been a 'jolly jumbuck'.   

I cannot confirm or contradict your thesis that William SUTTON per the David Shaw ex Sydney 1818 was the grandfather of Harriet, or that Harriet's mother was William's daughter or that that daughter was the mother of Philip MURPHY who died aged 29 .... but I can say 'Persist, keep searching, start researching - the thrill of the chase etc. 

:D Look deeper to see if there is proof that you have definitely found all the SUTTON residents in NSW in the Macquarie era. Join all the dots - carefully, accurately and then smile.

JM   
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline NevilleTB

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Re: Which William Sutton
« Reply #97 on: Friday 26 November 21 02:59 GMT (UK) »
I agree with what you say. It can be a never ending task to uncover the detail and sometimes blow up the big picture.

I am convinced there is enough proof that William the shopkeeper was the father of Sarah Sutton who married James Murphy. There is also a reference to William the shopkeeper on the log of the David Shaw so I think that link is established. I now have confirmed Harriet as William's daughter and married to Mr Humphrey in Tasmania. I know Harriet remarried after Adolarius died and stayed in Tasmania. All that leaves a high probability that the Harriet traveling to England was Sarah's daughter.

I think there is enough fact to confirm the four husbands/partners of Sarah and resultant children. There may have been more that I have not found. Beyond that, much of the information is probable, but needs to be more thoroughly confirmed.

As I mentioned earlier I wanted to go wide rather than deep with the tree initially and then take time to dig down on particular people. I have almost completed the wide scan. One more couple to investigate and the broad picture will be in place. I will then spend time digging down on each of the people and do a considerable amount of searching away from the Internet. The benefit of this approach is that it has been a learning experience for me as to how to do the research. I know I am only at the beginning of developing those skills and as I do further research, and ask questions of people far more skilled than I, I will become more proficient.