Author Topic: French marriage 1686  (Read 368 times)

Online jayaygee

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 13 November 21 20:55 GMT (UK) »
I had yet another look and also at the index to the Montreuil parish registers here:

https://sd-1.archive-host.com/membres/up/2366266425731913/Montreuil_1593-1791.pdf

and see that it has this marriage as being between DE BODEMONT first name uncertain and DUVIVIER Marguerite, but the handwriting in the margin is not the same as that of the entry itself and may have been added later and just copied by the later indexer. It's all a bit mysterious especially as I can't see either a signature or a mark made by a DE BODEMENT.  There is a baptism for a Madeleine DUVIVIER, but not for a Marguerite - though that could be due to a gap in the register.

BDF Twigg, Ellingham, Gates
BKM Bilbey, Collins, Brandon, Norwood, Smith
HAM Holloway (Romsey area)
HRT Brooks (Tring area)
LDN Saunders, Beedle
MDX Saunders
MLN Maitland, Robertson, McGlashan(all Edinburgh)
OXF Morby, Cross, Gardner (all Banbury area)
SAL Jones, Mathews, Higginson, Davies, Gobourn, Blount
WAR Pritchard (Birmingham)
WRY Dickinson, Atkinson, Mellon, Pritchard, Ashforth, Helliwell, Hague, Dungworth (all Sheffield area)

Offline goldie61

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 14 November 21 09:34 GMT (UK) »
Thanks jayaygee.
I will have to put my thinking cap on and let it roll around in my brain for a while!  ;)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Zefiro

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 14 November 21 15:13 GMT (UK) »
I had another go at this one. I managed to solve about everything, but the crucial parts still elude me.

Apres la publica(ti)on des bans de mariage entre Bertelemy
Bertolle de la paroisse de S(ain)t Laurens ...
de Bodemont et Madelaine du Vivie de cette paroisse et
en operation de l'ordonnance par eux obtenue de mons(ieu)r
l'official d'... en datte du seizieme d'octobre ... an
jay Andre Desmonez pretre et vicaire enliberé ledit mariage
et leur ay donné la benediction nuptiale en ceste eglise
presence de Jacques ..., Francois du Vivie, Louie
du Vivie, Noel du Pin, Anne d'Aire, damoiselle Marie
de Langaigne et plusieure autres, tous parrens et amye
desdits partie qui ont avec elles et nous signé le
cinquieme jour de novembre mil six cent quatre
vingt cinq.


Online jayaygee

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 14 November 21 18:04 GMT (UK) »
I took the liberty of posting the entry on the paleography forum of Généanet and here is the transcription a member came up with:

« Après la publication des bans de mariage entre Bertélemy
BERTOLLE, de la paroisse de St Laurens en Almagne, dusché
de Bodement, et Madelaine DU VIVIER, de ceste paroisse,
en exécution de l’ordonnance par eux obtenue de monsieur
l’official d’Amiens en datte du seizième d’octobre audit an,
j’ay, André DESMONTZ, prêtre et vicaire, célébré ledit mariage
et leur ay donné la bénédiction nuptialle en ceste église,
présence de Jacques HEURTEAUX, Francois DUVIVIER, Louis
DU VIVIER, Noël DU PEIN, Anne D’AIRE, damoiselle Marie
DE LANGAIGNE et plusieurs autres, tous parens et amys
desdites parties, qui ont avec elles et nous signé ce
cinquième jour de novembre mil six centz quattre
vingt cinq."
Signatures:
-La marque d’Anne DAIRE, mère de ladite espouzée
-Francois DUVIVIER
-marque de lad(ite) Margueritte DUVIVIER espouzée
-HERTAULT
-Louis DUVIVIER
-Noël DUPIN
-A. DESMONTZ
-Marie DELENGAIGNE
the groom's signature being the really illegible one on the first line.

So well done Zefiro!

The transcriber thinks that Allemagne (today we would translate by Germany but, of course Germany as we know it now didn't exist then) refers to the eastern part of France in a very broad sense and that St Laurent would be the present-day Saint-Laurent-en-Brionnais.  He also suggests that the surname could have been Berthold originally.  So more food for thought.

BDF Twigg, Ellingham, Gates
BKM Bilbey, Collins, Brandon, Norwood, Smith
HAM Holloway (Romsey area)
HRT Brooks (Tring area)
LDN Saunders, Beedle
MDX Saunders
MLN Maitland, Robertson, McGlashan(all Edinburgh)
OXF Morby, Cross, Gardner (all Banbury area)
SAL Jones, Mathews, Higginson, Davies, Gobourn, Blount
WAR Pritchard (Birmingham)
WRY Dickinson, Atkinson, Mellon, Pritchard, Ashforth, Helliwell, Hague, Dungworth (all Sheffield area)

Offline Zefiro

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 14 November 21 19:02 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for getting a full transcription of this text, jayaygee. My version was not that bad, it seems, but I'm aware that some people are better than me in this field. No surprise there, since French is not my mother tongue (nor is English by the way, so feel free to correct me if needed). The time I'm spending helping with this inquiry is not in vain, however. I'm learning new things with every document I attempt to read.

Online jayaygee

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 14 November 21 20:23 GMT (UK) »
Your version was very good, Zefiro.  I couldn't agree more that we learn so much from these documents and not just about reading them.  My mother tongue is English but I have lived in France far longer than I lived in the UK and have also been lucky enough to follow a paleography course in the past.  Trying to read new documents helps to keep me in practice as well as getting me to investigate news areas of history, geography, etc.
BDF Twigg, Ellingham, Gates
BKM Bilbey, Collins, Brandon, Norwood, Smith
HAM Holloway (Romsey area)
HRT Brooks (Tring area)
LDN Saunders, Beedle
MDX Saunders
MLN Maitland, Robertson, McGlashan(all Edinburgh)
OXF Morby, Cross, Gardner (all Banbury area)
SAL Jones, Mathews, Higginson, Davies, Gobourn, Blount
WAR Pritchard (Birmingham)
WRY Dickinson, Atkinson, Mellon, Pritchard, Ashforth, Helliwell, Hague, Dungworth (all Sheffield area)

Offline goldie61

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 14 November 21 21:12 GMT (UK) »
What lovely kind people you are jayaygee and Zefiro!
What a great idea to post it on the paleography forum on Geneanet, which of course I had no idea existed, this being my first foray into French records. I had half wondered about asking the office at pas de calais archives if they could decipher the missing bits - I have done this occasionally in England, and the people who work at these places have always been very helpful. But it would have been beyond my abilities to write that sort of email in French. So now no need for that, thank you so much.

I had wondered if it was Saint Laurent en Brionnais, which I see is just a couple of miles from Bodemont town. Their registers are on the Saone et Loire archives, and there are certainly Bertolle families around there. I must say, once you find exactly where someone came from, French records are pretty good and accessible on line without having to go through a paying site like ancestry and findmypast. It was just that initial pinpointing of where the first Bertolle who came to England came from that was always elusive with no information at all about where he originated.

Do you know if Bodemeont, and St Laurent de Brionnais  have produced an index of baptisms, marriages and deaths jayaygee such as you managed to find for Montreuil sur mer?

Now it looks as if they came to Montreuil from hundreds of miles away in Eastern France.
As you say, food for thought indeed.  :)
Thanks you so much again.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline goldie61

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Re: French marriage 1686
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 14 November 21 22:29 GMT (UK) »
deleted
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs