Author Topic: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s  (Read 763 times)

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #18 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 00:27 GMT (UK) »


Marriage certificate, Melbourne 1859, McCAULL-McDONALD.....what do you see for birthplaces for Henry and Mary.

Offline majm

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 02:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi there,

I  am very NSW centric and for perhaps over 50 years I have been fascinated with what is (and is not) recorded on NSW marriage records, and the different levels of detail provided to members of the general public over those years by the Registrar General's Office (and its successors).    Over the years I have noticed that sometimes some of the family history buffs who have a similar collection of copies of marriage records to me are aware of just how many  documents have had additional information included on those copies, particularly when the documents are handwritten. 

I am wondering if over time, if someone has shared a copy that has in turn been shared to others including to the person who then shared it with Baz ...  and if that copy  has had a family history buff write some details on that copy that were actually NOT on the actual record lodged with the Registrar General.   

You see,  I am concerned that there is possibly some information on the copy that has been given to baz201 that actually would not be required to be included by the deputy registrar.   While I dont have a working knowledge of Victoria's BDM records,  I do know that it would not actually be a requirement for the witnesses to be related to the bride or the groom, and further, there is no provision on the pre-printed form for either a church register or the BDM office copy of the registration for any explanation or relationship to be recorded about how or why the witnesses were chosen.

So I am astonished to read the following :
YES the certificate is all handwritten. I just pasted in some details from findmypast above that were in their index for the marriage.

yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the cerificate here..!

Really all I want to know is what happened to the mother and father (Alexander and Ann) after the marriage.


I can see that someone has kindly shared their copy with Baz201 :
I'm sorry I'm out of my depth now. I don't have a death Cert for Mary Russell McCaull and I don't really have the money to throw around to get it. I was just lucky that some relatives gave me the marriage Cert.

As far as I know the Russell became part of her name after the marriage. There is certainly no Russell in the family pre the marriage. I don't know where it came from.

maybe will just have to give up on this one


Sorry for the length of this post,  but may I suggest that Baz considers taking a snip of that section of his copy of that m.c.   and uploads that part so that my ancient rellies, including a retired Senior Officer with NSW BDM can study the image too.  I anticipate that a snip of a section of an image of a document dated in the 1850s would not cause a copyright issue, as it would surely be for fair research and study.

I should also share the excellent thread that informs us all as to what to expect on those historic Vic BDM images ... particularly for the marriages.    Here: 
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,373754.0.html

JM



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Offline baz201

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #20 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 04:03 GMT (UK) »
In reply to JM's request, I am posting the snippet from the document that was given to me from my relatives in NZ, which shows the marriage. I hope that, as JM suggests, I am not breaking the rules by doing so. I sincerely apologise to admin if so.

I have further learnt from ancestry.com that there is a document somewhere, either in the family or perhaps with the NZ Genealogy society or NZ National Library called the "McCaull family history document". I am going to see if I can hold of a copy of that somehow as it might provide some answers.

I am also going to write to the State Library of Victoria's family history section to see if they can trace the immigration records for the family, as the various ones I have seen are very hard to read.

Barry


Offline wivenhoe

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #21 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 05:19 GMT (UK) »

Your reply #11 -

"....yes, the words (father) and (mother) appear in brackets as witnesses next to the handwritten names, Alexander McDonald & Ann McDonald. Alexander did not sign the certificate as he was illiterate and it says "X his mark" in writing. I wish I could just paste the certificate here..!"

  -  I see nothing on this section of the certificate to indicate that a parent of Mary McDONALD is present when she marries, 1859, Melbourne.

Mary being a minor, it is possible that there is a record of permission given by someone for her to marry.  This would be recorded on the left hand side of the document, which is where  you would also see birthplace recorded.

Do you have the rest of this document - the left hand side?

Offline baz201

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #22 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 05:38 GMT (UK) »
Yes, I have the section to the left. All it gives is a number
The date of the wedding is given on another wedding on the same day, but I don't want to post the entire document in case admin decide to punish me for doing so.

You say "
  -  I see nothing on this section of the certificate to indicate that a parent of Mary McDONALD is present when she marries, 1859, Melbourne."

Would it not be fair to say that the document reads "In the presence of us : Alexander McDonald X his mark"

It mentions above that Alexander McDonald is Mary's father

According to the "McCaull family history document" (which I have not seen but is referred to on Ancestry.com) in summary: Mary Age: 19 on Cert. Marriage mentioned in McCaull family history document,  married at 99 Queensbury Street, N Melb, the home of Rev G. Reed. Her father, Alexander McDonald was witness to the marriage. Mary was a member of Presbyterian Church on Cert.

Offline majm

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #23 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 05:43 GMT (UK) »
 :)

Wivenhoe is spot on. 

The words in brackets are not Father and Mother  and are NOT part of the witness section.  They ARE within the section giving the parents names,  so the words in brackets are  the maiden surnames for the groom's mum and the bride's mum. 

I have had phone conversation with my ancient rellie, he says Wivenhoe always provides excellent comments and yes the LHS should explain who gave consent, afterall bride was 19. 

Also  huge Thank you to Barry for uploading that snip.   There would likely be four entries on the full  pdf, across two pages with reference numbers down the centre.   

JM.
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline sparrett

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #24 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 05:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi Baz201

 Hi Baz201
You have not left the headings of the columns (boxes) on you snip.
However I think I know them. ;D
Occupation
(Bridegroom) Architect
(Bride) Dessmaker
Age
(Bridegroom) 30
(Bride) 19

Residence of Each Party
(Bridegroom)- Present Geelong
(Bride) Present -Arden St North Melbourne
(Bridegroom)- Usual- Geelong
(Bride) Usuel  -Arden- St North Melbourne

Name of Father and motherís  Maiden name
(Bridegroom)  Michael McCaull
Mary Ann McCaull (Farrar)
(Bride) Alexander McDonald
Ann McDonald (McLean)

Fatherís Occupation
(Bridegroom) School Teacher
(Bride) Calico Printer

Witnesses were Alexander McDonald and Chas Reed /Beed


The other left hand section should show that the daughter was permitted to marry.
And I would guess by her father



 
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Offline baz201

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #25 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 05:56 GMT (UK) »
Thankyou all
Here is the very top of the page that gives the categories on the certificate. It shows the top of the previous recorded marriage

I agree that it does not read mother and father but (McLean) and (Farrar) as sparrett suggested

I still hold that Alexander McDonald is mentioned as a witness, ie. "in the presence of us"

Offline majm

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Re: looking for 'Alexander McDonald' Scottish immigrant to Melbourne 1850s
« Reply #26 on: Tuesday 16 November 21 06:02 GMT (UK) »
Hi Barry,

If you only have that sheet, you only have the right hand  half of the document. 

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.