Author Topic: Bertol French baptism  (Read 301 times)

Offline goldie61

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Bertol French baptism
« on: Wednesday 17 November 21 10:36 GMT (UK) »
This is from the Amiens Saint Firmin a la Porte register for 1660.
(For those who have been kind enough to previously help trace this journey, a Claude Bertelemy Bertole obtained an 'ordinance' from Amiens to marry some years after this).
It is transcribed as 'Bertol', though it looks to me more like 'Bertel'.

I have:
Le 19d sur baptizee Suzanne fille de Claude
Bertol Re? General de huit ? dix
huit ? de picardie, et de damoiselle Suzanne
le doux. P le sieur Andre Roussel M damoiselle
Gabrielle Godin


I'd be grateful if somebody could fill in the blanks, and explain what this is saying about Claude.
Thank you.
 






 
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Online teragram31510

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Re: Claude Bertelemy Bertole French baptism
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 15:05 GMT (UK) »
My offering:

Le 19e fut baptizée Suzanne fille de Claude Bertol R?????? G?????  ?? huit livres dix huit sols de Picardie, et de damoiselle Suzanne le doux. p (=parrain) le sieur André Roussel, m (= marraine) damoiselle Gabrielle Godin

I'm not at all expert in 17th century French handwriting but if the thing that looks like a V crossed through is an R then the word after Bertol certainly begins with an
R and the following with a G but I don't think it is 'General'.

The child Suzanne was baptised on the 19th December 1660 and it looks like a payment was involved? Do the other records on the page look like they involve payments? The godfather's and godmother's names are also given.

Sorry not to be more help.


Offline Zefiro

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Re: Claude Bertelemy Bertole French baptism
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 20:13 GMT (UK) »
I think it reads like this. One would normally expect the occupation following the name of the father. Here is stated general receiver of 8 livres 18 sols of Picardie. I don't know if this was a lot of money and why it is mentioned here. Are there more entries in this register with similar phrases?
Other way of explaining this: Maybe Claude had no occupation and received yearly this amount of money (if this should be a substantial income)?

Le 19e fut baptizée Susanne fille de Claude
Bertol Receveur General des huict livrez dix
huict solz de Picardie, et de damoiselle Susanne
Ledoux. P(arrain) le sieur André Roussel, m(arraine) damoiselle
Gabrielle Godin.


Offline goldie61

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Re: Bertol French baptism
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 21:41 GMT (UK) »
Thanks teragram and Zefiro.

How very interesting.
I can't see any others on this page of about 16 baptisms that give any amounts of money, so it doesn't look like a fee of some kind.
It does look like  payment he receives as you suggest.

There are one or two other that include 'demoiselle' for the mother - would I be right in assuming they would not have been married to the father? The other entries give a straightforward name of the father and then the mother.

This entry is another one that has more information about this father, - there are only a couple with extra information given, but I can't see any mention of money.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Zefiro

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Re: Bertol French baptism
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 22:11 GMT (UK) »

There are one or two other that include 'demoiselle' for the mother - would I be right in assuming they would not have been married to the father? The other entries give a straightforward name of the father and then the mother.


No, you'd make a mistake.
Under the Ancien Régime, demoiselle (damoiselle) could be a title of nobility, but was above all a title of civility, the use of which from the 17th century onward meant that all women, married or not, of good descent or being wed to the 'right' person were adorned with it. Examples are daughter or wife of officers of all kinds, bourgeois, merchants or certain tradesmen ...

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demoiselle

Offline goldie61

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Re: Bertol French baptism
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 22:29 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Zefiro.
So she would either be 'demoiselle' in her own right, or because she was married to Claude Bertole who was of a certain class or rank?
Even more interesting!
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline GR2

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Re: Bertol French baptism
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 22:36 GMT (UK) »
He is not receiving the money for himself. A Receiver General is an official appointed to receive money for the crown or government. The sum must refer to some kind of tax or impost which he collects.

Offline Zefiro

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Re: Bertol French baptism
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 22:37 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Zefiro.
So she would either be 'demoiselle' in her own right, or because she was married to Claude Bertole who was of a certain class or rank?
Even more interesting!

Exactly!

Offline goldie61

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Re: Bertol French baptism
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 17 November 21 23:01 GMT (UK) »
He is not receiving the money for himself. A Receiver General is an official appointed to receive money for the crown or government. The sum must refer to some kind of tax or impost which he collects.
Thanks GR2. More and more interesting!
Do you think he would have been based in Amiens, or at least Picardy, or could his job have been one that involved travelling round the country to collect this tax? Wikipedia suggests the Receiver General of the Treasury nowadays is a very high ranking post in Paris.
No other entries come up for Bertol baptisms in Amiens - but that's not to say there's not something there. The name has so many variations.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs