Author Topic: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert  (Read 882 times)

Offline horselydown86

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 25 November 21 14:54 GMT (UK) »
That's a useful image, heywood.

The entry in the Impedimentum column for No 93 is what we see when the dispensation is for consanguinity - in this case, dispensation for a second and second degree of consanguinity.

Offline heywood

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 25 November 21 15:03 GMT (UK) »
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.


im quite new to interpreting these marriage certs, what would three sets of banns imply? thank you all for your help so far! :)

Explanation here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage
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Offline riannisuileabhain

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 25 November 21 23:51 GMT (UK) »
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.


im quite new to interpreting these marriage certs, what would three sets of banns imply? thank you all for your help so far! :)

Explanation here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banns_of_marriage

Very interesting, thank you so much!


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #12 on: Friday 26 November 21 00:12 GMT (UK) »
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.

I agree with heywood.
 I've never seen degrees of consanguinity or affinity written as "three" or "tres". They are always written as 2 sets of numerals, the first for the groom, the second for the bride. 
The marriage register in heywood's link is from Dublin. I think incidences of consanguinity were likely to be much less there than in a country parish.

This is a marriage register from a rural parish in Mayo where choice of spouse was more limited. Basically almost everyone was related to a Duffy, a Horan or a Moran.  :)
There were 32 weddings March 1856-Feb. 1857 of which 10 had a note about consanguinity or affinity.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/6/mode/1up
Weddings 1861-2. As well as notes about consanguinity/affinity, see note for entry 20 right-hand page, marriage of Patrick Boulton & Elenora Duffy "Boulton from Teleha (?) was obliged to pay Rev. W. Mc_ _ _ _  5 shillings for dispensation in banns and paid me 5-6 for my B_ _ _"
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/13/mode/1up
1862 marriages continue on the next page. Entry 30 at top of the page is a couple who were related 
 2x3 by consanguinity and 3x3 by affinity.
Another common reason for dispensation is marriage in a forbidden time e.g. Lent or Advent. An example is entry 33 in March 1861.

Did the couple who married in 1894 leave Ireland shortly after the wedding? Imminent emigration might have been a reason for dispensing with banns. Was the bride pregnant? That could be another reason.


Denuntiationes – denunciations (refers to if there are any impediments to a marriage)

there appears to be lots of impediments!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impediment_(Catholic_canon_law)#List_of_diriment_impediments_to_marriage


Arranging the death of a spouse to be free to marry another is a serious impediment. I doubt there would be a dispensation for that.

 
Cowban

Offline riannisuileabhain

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #13 on: Friday 26 November 21 00:36 GMT (UK) »
There is a seperate column for Impediments.
Example here https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/display-pdf.jsp?pdfName=st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0168

If you look at Denunciations - the entries are either ‘dispensation’ or ‘tres’ which I would think is dispensation from Banns or three sets.

I agree with heywood.
 I've never seen degrees of consanguinity or affinity written as "three" or "tres". They are always written as 2 sets of numerals, the first for the groom, the second for the bride. 
The marriage register in heywood's link is from Dublin. I think incidences of consanguinity were likely to be much less there than in a country parish.

This is a marriage register from a rural parish in Mayo where choice of spouse was more limited. Basically almost everyone was related to a Duffy, a Horan or a Moran.  :)
There were 32 weddings March 1856-Feb. 1857 of which 10 had a note about consanguinity or affinity.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/6/mode/1up
Weddings 1861-2. As well as notes about consanguinity/affinity, see note for entry 20 right-hand page, marriage of Patrick Boulton & Elenora Duffy "Boulton from Teleha (?) was obliged to pay Rev. W. Mc_ _ _ _  5 shillings for dispensation in banns and paid me 5-6 for my B_ _ _"
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632351#page/13/mode/1up
1862 marriages continue on the next page. Entry 30 at top of the page is a couple who were related 
 2x3 by consanguinity and 3x3 by affinity.
Another common reason for dispensation is marriage in a forbidden time e.g. Lent or Advent. An example is entry 33 in March 1861.

Did the couple who married in 1894 leave Ireland shortly after the wedding? Imminent emigration might have been a reason for dispensing with banns. Was the bride pregnant? That could be another reason.


Denuntiationes – denunciations (refers to if there are any impediments to a marriage)

there appears to be lots of impediments!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impediment_(Catholic_canon_law)#List_of_diriment_impediments_to_marriage


Arranging the death of a spouse to be free to marry another is a serious impediment. I doubt there would be a dispensation for that.

 

The couple married on 22 July (? not sure if theres any catholic holidays then), they did not emigrate anytime after the marriage but i think the bride mightve been about 2 months pregnant at the time. Its very interesting that there was so many limitations to marriage back in the day, thank you so much for your help!

Offline heywood

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #14 on: Friday 26 November 21 05:19 GMT (UK) »
From Maiden Stone:
Did the couple who married in 1894 leave Ireland shortly after the wedding? Imminent emigration might have been a reason for dispensing with banns. Was the bride pregnant? That could be another reason.”

This couple, though, in the original post, has ‘three’ written in the box, so presumably followed the usual procedure of Banns.
If my memory is correct, I think our Banns were posted on the church notice board but that was fifty years ago  :)
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Offline Shay123

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 25 December 21 14:59 GMT (UK) »
Hello,
I have the same issue,
normally the dispensation is given for the degrees of family relatedness - consanguinity and affinity (generation difference since the last marriage of the families).
Impediments in the parish register for St Andrews in Dublin is in a different column from denuntiation and in the denuntiation column is written a variety of abbreviations. Disp is the most common, another has a V and what looks like a number 8, a few have a Tres or Tris (closed e?) which presumably is in Latin and = three.
The Banns in English churches were read three times in church on consecutive Sundays and in more literate times were posted in a public place to allow people to make their own objections. My memory tells me the first had to be 6 weeks before but I am not exactly  sure but I am sure you get the gist.
So, I can imagine it is three opportunities to denounce / complain that there is a reason why they should not get married (the impediment) which goes in the next column? However, it makes for confusion compared with rural registers where the degrees of relatedness or dispensation, sometimes from the archbishop where an appeal has been made, were scribbled alongside the entry for the marriage.
Crowe, Crough, Croagh some Croak and Crow
Ireland mainly Tipperary / Limerick (where the name variations occurred most) but I have many all Ireland collections of data etc.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 26 December 21 13:55 GMT (UK) »

 Disp is the most common, another has a V and what looks like a number 8, a few have a Tres or Tris (closed e?) which presumably is in Latin and = three.
The Banns in English churches were read three times in church on consecutive Sundays and in more literate times were posted in a public place to allow people to make their own objections. My memory tells me the first had to be 6 weeks before but I am not exactly  sure

V may be abbreviation for vagus/vagi, people with no fixed abode, no home parish (vagus =wandering, unsettled, vagor = to wander, go far afield).
Banns were to be read on 3 consecutive Sundays or Holy Days (i.e. when there was likely to be a large congregation present). When the Anglican Church was set up it continued with the Catholic banns custom (heywood's reply #10).
   
Cowban

Offline Shay123

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Re: "three" denunciations on roman catholic marriage cert
« Reply #17 on: Monday 27 December 21 08:48 GMT (UK) »
Hello,
Thanks for the information avout the V
Somewhere I have a list of church abbreviations from the internet and I must physically print it for reference.

I think what is confusing is that the cleric writing the note knew the protocol and therefore could abbreviate how he wanted. For us looking back, like anyone trying to read my notes, would not understnd the sense of what is happening. Three denunciations means that three people objected to the wedding or that the opportunnity to denounce the wedding was given three times? The other abbreviations are also opaque unless we know church protocols.

So, should dispensation in the denunciation column mean that all objections were denied or does it mean that there was unidentified consanguinuity that was not an impediment to the marriage?
Crowe, Crough, Croagh some Croak and Crow
Ireland mainly Tipperary / Limerick (where the name variations occurred most) but I have many all Ireland collections of data etc.