Author Topic: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?  (Read 756 times)

Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,722
    • View Profile
Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« on: Thursday 25 November 21 12:04 GMT (UK) »
Hello everyone,

As far as I know, or recall, the 'signing of the registers' following a marriage ceremony actually entails (or entailed) signing two registers; one was retained by the institute where the marriage took place, the other being hand over to the registry office. The latter set of registers form the collection held by the GRO.

The two attached certificates were provided by the Belgrave Synagogue in Leeds, where Moses Dombin and Elizabeth Dombin married (different partners) on 14 August 1869. Only the name of the father of Elizabeth's husband was recorded. The parents of Moses' wife, Catherine, were very much alive and living in living in Mile End Old Town. She and Moses were living with them in 1871; she was still with them in 1881, when Moses was investigating a future in the USA.

Elizabeth Blashkey (born Dombin) lived to the grand old age of 98, dying in 1948. The Hebrew inscription on her gravestone states that her father was called Asher; the name she gave to her first-born son in 1872. Moses Dombin's third son, born in 1881, was also called Asher. This leads me to believe that Moses and Elizabeth were cousins, rather than siblings. But that's another story for another thread.

The question is, would it be worth while ordering certs from the GRO in the expectation that they had been completed in full and would include the names of all the fathers?

Justin

Offline heywood

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 35,245
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 25 November 21 12:18 GMT (UK) »
I am sure you have this because of your beliefs about the relationship but there is an orphaned Elizabeth Dombin, 10 yrs at 1861 273/121/24 in Whitechapel.
Perhaps she didnít know her father.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline heywood

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 35,245
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 25 November 21 12:21 GMT (UK) »
I am sure you have this because of your beliefs about the relationship but there is an orphaned Elizabeth Dombin, 10 yrs at 1861 273/121/24 in Whitechapel.
Perhaps she didnít know her father.

Perhaps to be ignored - wrong area  ::)
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,722
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 25 November 21 12:36 GMT (UK) »
Heywood,

I believe that the 10-year-old in the Jewish orphanage could be the same person, but she ended up in Leeds with another family member, a probable cousin Elizabeth Domben/Dombein who had married Jacob Wolfe in the same synagogue in 1863. J. Wolfe witnessed both weddings in 1869.

Elizabeth Blashkey (born Dombin) clearly told her children the name of her father, otherwise it would not have been inscribed on her gravestone - Beyla daughter of Asher.

Offline davidft

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,197
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 25 November 21 13:18 GMT (UK) »
Things like this do happen.

In 2006 I applied to the GRO for the marriage certificate of my great great grandfather. When it arrived his father was not listed. I knew who his parents were and that they had married. I therefore wrote to the local RO that hold the original papers just in case the fathers name had not been recorded on the GRO copy by mistake. The local RO said there were no signatures on the original copy either but as far as they were concerned it was a fully recognised marriage as everything else had been completed. So either it was a very joyous affair and things got a little out of hand or else there was a big hoohah and the final signatures got missed in all the confusion.

Either way though it was a legal marriage and he did have a father!
James Stott c1775-1850. James was born in Yorkshire but where? He was a stonemason and married Elizabeth Archer (nee Nicholson) in 1794 at Ripon. They lived thereafter in Masham. If anyone has any suggestions or leads as to his birthplace I would be interested to know. I have searched for it for years without success. Thank you.

Offline Jon_ni

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 219
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 25 November 21 13:22 GMT (UK) »
As far as I'm aware there is & was no obligation on parties to name fathers even if alive and M Golberg  will have also completed the original (Local) and likely the end of quarter copy sent to GRO London. If you decide to order one suggest order from the Local Register office in Leeds, not the quarterly one from www.gro.gov.uk/ as that will have been copied from the Parish version you posted. The parties have signed the one you have as complete in their own hands.

Offline JustinL

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,722
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 25 November 21 13:28 GMT (UK) »
David and Jon,

Thank you for your informative replies.

Seems like it would be a gamble, at best, to order copies from the local RO or the GRO.

Very frustrating.

Offline iluleah

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,033
  • Zeya who has a plastic bag fetish
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 25 November 21 13:56 GMT (UK) »
Could be they didn't know their father, could be they were adopted, could be a family falling out, could be the man who brought them up or was even named on their birth cert turned out to be their step father.... researching more about each infividual should give you more information.

My great grandfather married twice, he stated different names at each marriage as his father, the first he wrote his grandfather he lived with his grandparents from an early age and the second time he wrote his uncle down as his father, again he lived/worked ao was close to his uncle, even though his 'father' was alive on both of his marriages....... so that seemed he was estranged from his parents from an early age and clearly angry by naming men that he felt was 'more ' of a father to him than the man who on paper record was his father
Leicestershire:Chamberlain, Dakin, Wilkinson, Moss, Cook, Welland, Dobson, Roper,Palfreman, Squires, Hames, Goddard, Topliss, Twells,Bacon.
Northamps:Sykes, Harris, Rice,Knowles.
Rutland:Clements, Dalby, Osbourne, Durance, Smith,Christian, Royce, Richardson,Oakham, Dewey,Newbold,Cox,Chamberlaine,Brow, Cooper, Bloodworth,Clarke
Durham/Yorks:Woodend, Watson,Parker, Dowser
Suffolk/Norfolk:Groom, Coleman, Kemp, Barnard, Alden,Blomfield,Smith,Howes,Knight,Kett,Fryston
Lincolnshire:Clements, Woodend

Offline Bookbox

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,843
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 25 November 21 14:00 GMT (UK) »
Justin, this doesnít help, but I have half a dozen certificates from Belgrave Street where the fathersí details were not completed.

Would it be worth trying for a copy of the authorisation? I believe the Beth Din do hold some authorisations from provincial synagogues dating from outside the time-frame of their online database. Even if there is no father named, there might be a brother? Just a thought.