Author Topic: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?  (Read 775 times)

Offline rosie99

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 25 November 21 14:02 GMT (UK) »
Hello everyone,

As far as I know, or recall, the 'signing of the registers' following a marriage ceremony actually entails (or entailed) signing two registers; one was retained by the institute where the marriage took place, the other being hand over to the registry office. The latter set of registers form the collection held by the GRO.


Apparently it is not normal for the bride, groom & witnesses to sign the copy that goes to the GRO. 
See reply 6.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839129.
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Offline JustinL

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 25 November 21 14:06 GMT (UK) »
Hello Bookbox,

Looks they were a bit lax in recording the details in that synagogue.

I recommended the MA route to the Dutch guy I'm helping. He has indicated that the response from the United Synagogue was to order the GRO certs. Maddening. I have asked him for a clarification.

Offline Jebber

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 25 November 21 14:51 GMT (UK) »
The copy from the GRO is the least reliable of all, what they hold has been transcribed from the copy held by the local Register Offices, it will not have original signatures.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.


Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 25 November 21 20:14 GMT (UK) »
Quote
Apparently it is not normal for the bride, groom & witnesses to sign the copy that goes to the GRO.
See reply 6.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=839129.
Quote
The copy from the GRO is the least reliable of all, what they hold has been transcribed from the copy held by the local Register Offices

Stan correctly stated in the Rootschat link "What you have is a certified copy. If you want a copy of the original then you have to get it from the local register office." It was however usual for the Bride and Groom to sign the duplicate copy that eventually made its way to the Local GRO. Reply 6 discusses the certified copies given to a bride & groom on the day of the marriage and to the various formats cetified copies may subsequently be provided in by a Local GRO.

A copy image or cert ordered from GRO Southport today (originally headquartered in London) was a quarterly copy made by the parish Vicars/ Jewish secretaries themselves, rather than one made by the Local Registry Office. The LRO acted as an intermediary for the Registrar General, collating from their area parishes.

From the start of civil marriage registration 1837 the Church of England, Quakers and Jews were permitted to conduct their own marriage ceremonies without the presence of a Registrar, in affect they acted as Registrars as well. Every marriage was registered in duplicate one copy being the parish's and the other duplicate was kept at the church until FULL whereupon it was sent to the Superintendent Registrar (Leeds in this case). The Minister/Secretary was paid a fee of a shilling or two to conduct searches of and to certify any public requests of copies of entries from either of the 2 books he held. At the expiration of every Quarter the Minister/Secretary made a certified copy of all marriages conducted (ie in April, July, Oct & Jan) and sent that to the District Superintendent Registrar. This he checked and forwarded to London along with the duplicate births and deaths for the quarter and marriages conducted under the supervision of Registrars, whether that be in the Registrar's office or other non-conformist church (Baptist, Methodist etc). As such all copies ordered from GRO headquarters are copies and contain no signatures.

As completed books were eventually sent to the Local District Office orders requested from them (if they provide photocopies of the image rather than type or hand written text) will contain the actual signatures and be in every way identical (supposedly) to the other ledger retained by the parish/synagogue.

It was the duty of the Registrar General, London to compile an index to the certified quarterly copies of all the BMD he received from across England and Wales.
It was the duty of the Superientendent Registrar to index all Books held by him in his District Office to enable searches to be made AT his office and the provision of certified copies to the local public (for marriages this implies completed books, was not stated he had to index all the quarterlies before sending to London).

This was all still the proceedure followed by the 1949 Marriage Act (Part IV) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/76/part/IV/enacted which is only a few pages long and can be printed as a pdf https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Geo6/12-13-14/76/part/IV/enacted/data.pdf

A similar proceedure was enacted and followed in Ireland up to partition 1921 just the GRO was based in Dublin so that was where quarterly copies went (after 1922 split into the separate GRO jurisdictions). We can see the full birth death and marriage pages with the certification footers on the free Irish Government's site for historical records https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp - such as this certified copy in 1861 https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1861/09614/5486707.pdf

[attachments relate to 1836 Marriage Registration Act]

Full Clergy Guidance can be read in section 4 here https://www.churchofengland.org/sites/default/files/2017-10/guidebookclergyfeb15final.pdf as it pertained 2015 prior to the July 2021 marriage changes.

Offline rosie99

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #13 on: Friday 26 November 21 15:23 GMT (UK) »
Stan correctly stated in the Rootschat link "What you have is a certified copy. If you want a copy of the original then you have to get it from the local register office." It was however usual for the Bride and Groom to sign the duplicate copy that eventually made its way to the Local GRO. Reply 6 discusses the certified copies given to a bride & groom on the day of the marriage and to the various formats cetified copies may subsequently be provided in by a Local GRO.

If you look at my link you will see that the information was posted by a retired registrar so presumably the information posted by them was what they were required to do.
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Offline JustinL

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #14 on: Friday 26 November 21 15:26 GMT (UK) »
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experiences.

I'll be back with a fuller response soon

Offline Jon_ni

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #15 on: Friday 26 November 21 22:18 GMT (UK) »
Quote
If you look at my link you will see that the information was posted by a retired registrar so presumably the information posted by them was what they were required to do.

Rosie

I did, was aware of that, and my post agrees with what he wrote, it was the interpretation of it and the proceedures I elaborated on in relation to the current post and the time period due to your comment
Quote
apparently it is not normal for the bride, groom & witnesses to sign the copy that goes to the GRO
which he did not state, and to clarify the differences in the copies held at Local and National Offices.

Offline JustinL

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 27 November 21 08:50 GMT (UK) »
Once again, thank you to you all, in particular to Jon.

I have located the act in full in Google books. For those interested, the free eBook is here
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01r35/

You may find the attached original and certified copy of a marriage certificate of interest. The difference in the signatures is clearly visible.

Offline majm

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Re: Fathers not named on marriage certificates - laziness?
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 27 November 21 12:07 GMT (UK) »
As an aside perhaps ....

Is it of any significance that the Orthodox Jewish teachings show Jewishness is passed down through mother's line.... so regardless of who the father is, the child of a Jewish mother is Jewish.   If so, then perhaps the Synogue registrar' s lack of recording father's name is not laziness...   

JM
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